Interview 26 // Nina Sobell

I'm Renata Janiszewska, and I'm an artist who works with digital media. I'm speaking this evening with a very distinguished pioneer of digital art, Nina Sobell, who's talking to me from her New York City studio. I'm in Lion's Head, Canada, and I met Nina through the artistic group or movement or cultural phenomenon, if you will, known as Techspressionism.

Renata Janiszewska

Techspressionist artists utilize technology as a means of expressing their emotions. Nina is a multi-platform artist who thinks of herself as an electronic medium. And that led her to originate brainwave drawings, the interactive synchrony of brainwaves between two or more people, creating the first combined physical and mental portrait by visualizing non-verbal communication.

Renata Janiszewska

What an achievement. Her work has been shown at or is in the collection of Dia, The Whitney, Hammer, Lost in the Woods, and The Los Angeles County Museum of Art, The Blanton Museum, MIT, Whitechapel, Zwirner, WP Phillips Gallery, and the Louisiana Museum of Modern Art in Denmark, among other institutions. She's currently in a show at the Blanton Museum showing with, among other artists, Philip Guston.

Renata Janiszewska

And she also has a show right now in the Hudson Yards. Area of New York at a new gallery called Sojourner. And she's part of the inaugural show of this new art gallery. Nina, tell me something about your background, where you were born, where you live in practice now, and any cultural influences that you could mention.

I was born in Patchogue, Long Island. And I live in this city. I live in New York City, and I live upstate near Millbrook. Being Jewish, I was raised with the importance of contributing something to life. It was embedded in my existence sense that I should work towards bringing something to society. I should make use of every day and I should make some kind of contribution.

Nina Sobell

And there was my mother. I remember copying being a cartoon. And she said to me, well, that's something I've seen before. She said to me, show me something that I haven't seen before. Show me something new. Something new. Something new. New. And that has prompted me to push towards making something new all of my life. And I still haven't stopped. I hope not. And yes, that's it.

It on that one that's a good answer now I would like it I would really like it if you could make a reference to something in your brooklyn rail talk now okay

the brooklyn rail was organized by ann mccoy and she is one of my present influences she is giving talks about young young art and alchemy and the alchemical imagination and she works with dreams and transformations and she's a quite something and she is influencing me now and yeah

That's good that's good yeah that's just a little like segue into it

So now she organized she organized these this brooklyn rail that was produced by brooklyn rail this presentation that involved three other artists as

Well as myself thanks nina and now we're going to take a look at a part of that brooklyn rail video

Today I'll be talking about the visualization of interactive non-verbal communication that draws upon the social nature of the brain's electrochemistry as it reveals a deeper understanding into our internal dialogue made visible my exploration of video's relation to the unconscious and thinking of myself as an electronic medium led me to conceive of brain wave drawings in 1972.

Nina Sobell

Systems engineer mike trivich and I created one of the first visual interfaces for two people to communicate non-verbally by using a color organ to identify brain waves with color and sound and then we used an oscilloscope and all of the final results are very interesting in this video we're going to take a look at the here, internal and external portraits display brainwave synchronicity, perhaps telepathically, when a circle is formed. Vertical distortion indicates the person's EEG on the left, and horizontal distortion indicates the person's EEG on the right.

Nina Sobell

In 1978, Ann Bean and I collaborated on her piece Silent Conversations, telepathic drawings in which we communicated nonverbally, creating a heightened awareness of focus, and made drawings based on these conversations. Quoted from Ann. And now I'll play Brainwave Drawings, 1973 to 1978.

Nina Sobell has been intrigued by the idea of being able to capture the admittance of electrical impulses by the brain and transposing them into a graphic image since 1973. She began to collaborate with systems engineer Michael Trivich. On the monitor, two people were able to see the physical as well as mental image. They were able to create one composite brainwave drawing in real time.

Unattributed

Savelle was determined to devise a noncompetitive creative environment geared to home TV viewers who could create an active rather than passive TV viewing experience and enhance their ability to communicate. Dr. Barry Sturman of the Supplemental Veterans Administration Hospital in California offered access to equipment.

Unattributed

As the director of the neuropsychology lab, he was most interested in the psycho-sociological aspects of the piece. Electrodes were attached to the occipital region of the brain, the visual cortex of two participants. They sat comfortably in front of the monitor to display their faces and superimpose composite brainwave information.

Unattributed

The real-time Lisa Xu pattern changed in accordance with the brainwave activity. When both people put out the same brainwave, it formed an irregular circular configuration. Verbal communication between the participants was the objective. The brainwave was then When one person was distracted, it appeared as distortion horizontally or vertically depending upon the axis which displayed his or her brainwave pattern.

Unattributed

The results were averaged through a PDP-10 computer and proved that two people could influence each other's mind states nonverbally. The EEG video telemetry environment was installed at the Contemporary Arts Museum in Houston, Texas. It was open to public participation. Electrodes were attached to participants in the same manner as in the Sepalvida installation and an electroencephalogram was given to them. The public could view closed-circuit monitors of the people in the living room environment. And the graph being made, a video projector also played back what others had previously created. Soon after getting a job at the computer store, Sebel began to collaborate with bio-cybernetics engineer Chris Matthews. He was the first person to be able to use the computer to create a computer. He was also the first person to be able to use computer graphics to enhance brainwave drawing.

Unattributed

With the support of Dick Heiser, experiments were made using his equipment and an EEG device from the Biofeedback Research Institute. During the following year, Matthews and Sebel developed computer graphics programs for the piece. By 1981, after experimenting with different patterns, their efforts were recorded in Matthews' laboratory. John Gord built a special effects generator and other equipment was donated. The computer was then used to create a computer-based computer graphics program. It was discovered that when one participant made a transition from one brainwave state to another, it often influenced a similar transition in the other person non-verbally.

In 1992, this brainwave drawing installation was a benchmark piece. A closed-circuit monitor inside the front window of the Bronx River Arts Gallery displayed two people communicating via their brainwaves as they watched their physical image dissolve with their mental communication. People on the street and in the gallery could see this. This is the first time that all of the questions, physical space inside and out of the gallery, the communication between the two participants, charting the brainwaves, and a passive audience, came together.

Nina Sobell

The image of the two people walking towards each other and the background color indicated the length of time of EEG synchronicity. In 1999, at the Walter Phillips Gallery BAMF Center for the Arts, Emily Hartzell, Sonya Allen and I created four images. The images were taken from the! The image that we see on the screen is the front of the role of the woman in the camera. The center of the hair is the front of the model. The color of the hair is the result of

The major impact of the Batman in themitation is me BAMF BAMF BAMF

During one of the seances, Meditations, Memory, Dream, and Fantasy, the medium poses a series of meditations to two EEG artists, one in Banff, one in New York. We watch their eyes and brain waves and listen to their heartbeats as they ponder each one. Then they and we write about the memory, dream, or fantasy we've just inhabited.

Nina Sobell

An artist in Banff transcribes their words into drawings on paper. Our stories fill a database from which a voice reads during the performance, mixing with the heartbeats. We all have an instruction on the page that every five minutes, a new meditation will appear on the screen. Think about it and watch the brain waves of the EEG performers as they think about it too. After two minutes, a box will appear on the screen where you can write about your thoughts on the meditation.

Nina Sobell

All the participants were identified by their IP addresses. In 1999, during the performance Solar Wind, Weaving Sun and Moon, the moon and beam was on a boat in the English Channel while Anders Manson and I were at the Chateau de Sassy in France. We made one minute simultaneous drawings every four minutes for one hour before the total solar eclipse.

Nina Sobell

You can see here how they matched up. Please go to my website to see more of them on the timeline and many photos of the event. As we pass out of the shadow, I said at the time, we will know the profoundness of the experience people, birds and all animals will have later in Eastern Europe that by experience alone, we will be closely connected to others.

Nina Sobell

An article appeared in the local paper. Emotions captured on the internet. What could be more intriguing than our own perceptions during an eclipse? Mentioning nonverbal communication. Thinking of you, 2001. Joined through telepresence, participants at separate physical locations see each other and transmit brain waves and other human factors through the internet. The real-time convergence of this information flow creates a shared sensory environment for them and for public participants on the web. Thank you. Thinking of you explores the space between thought and experience in this cyber and physical installation.

Nina Sobell

Participants in physical and cyberspace perceive of the intricacies of personal communication by interpretation and navigation of brainwave energies. They see each other and one composite brainwave drawing they are creating together by tracking the synchronicity of their brainwaves. An internal and external portrait forms in this meditative space for the creative process of our collective consciousness to unfold.

Nina Sobell

Brainwaves patterns are identifiable by color and tone, morphing and evolving over time by the group mind and interacted with at each physical location as light and sound sculptures. And this work is a work of art.

Our collective consciousness nature allows us to perceive each individual movement by allowing itself to perceive itself through human Opposition or abilities or presup tightening structure feels dynamic in results of interactive antecedents withpekoli—ằng presupmarkt क

Presupmän years old and then my mother used to bring me in from long island to the to moma and I remember seeing my first giacomettis when I was like just barely 40 years old and remarking to her how much I liked them and then in the sixth grade my art teacher was jim dying and jim dying and jim dying loved my sculpture he we did clay sculptures with him and we built this huge chicken wire base sculpture in the in the attic of the school and his energy and his devotion it influenced me he used to sing he used to take us on trips into the city to see shows and go to the museums together sixth sixth grade and he said that I was an artist he liked my sculpture so much he wanted one and I wouldn't give it to him he says you're an artist so I always knew that I was an artist before that and that just cemented the deal and when you

Saw the when you saw the giacomettis at the moment

Yeah we're so yeah

Young they must have seemed huge to

You they were they were huge they were they're absolutely huge they were massive yeah and I remember I remember going to the museum and crying when I saw a painting of his of jean genet and I just was always an artist and I and I work with communication because when I was a child there was nothing I could do about it I was just one in the house really I mean it sounds like there was but it there wasn't it's really and I still remember my neighbor's phone number because I used to reach out by phone yeah and so I've used telecommunications and telepresence and communication my work all the time yeah I was at the cusp of video art and I there were no other video artists that I had at the time so I was at the cusp of video art and I was at the cusp of video art and I was at the cusp of video art and I was at the cusp of video art and I was at the cusp of video art and I was at the cusp of video art and I was at the cusp of video art and I was at the cusp of video art and I was at the cusp of video art and I was at the cusp of video art and I was at the cusp of video art and I was at the cusp of video art and I was at the cusp of video art and I was at I knew when I started using video.

Nina Sobell

And so I did the first known thesis in video. I see. Yeah, I did the first known thesis in video. And I, yeah, there was the Video Freaks, the Video Freaks video manual. And the librarian for Cornell, I was at Cornell for graduate school. And at Cornell, there was David Shearer. And he lent me the video equipment. He brought video equipment for students to use. And I used it to document the interaction with the sculptures that I had made. And then I recreated the, the configuration of the sculptures. It went from recreating the sculptures in video, four weeks to six second time lapse. So if you went from that, that time to the six second time lapse, it recorded you rubbing your nose. And then I went, then there was a closed circuit monitor and you went out to close the circuit monitor. That was the end of the show.

Nina Sobell

And that was the, the, the pieces disintegration of objects within a sequential time period. The disintegration and recreation of objects within a sequential time period.

Now we are going to watch another presentation by Nina. This one is part of a course exploring how similar technologies are driving new forms of art and science.

Inspiration from, for brainwave drawings came from being with Mike and us trying out this alpha machine. And I looked at him and I said, what about how to express the communication between two people? And he said, what about using an oscilloscope and having one person on the X and one person on the Y axis? And I said, well, let's try it. And we did. And the rest is history.

Nina Sobell

My exploration of videos relation to the unconscious and thinking of myself as an electronic medium led me to conceive of brainwave drawings in 1972. Systems engineer Mike Trivich and I created one of the first visual interfaces for two people to communicate non-verbal to identify brainwaves with color and sound. And then we used an oscilloscope.

Nina Sobell

Here, internal and external waves of the brainwaves. Internal portraits display brainwave synchronicity, perhaps telepathically, when a circle is formed. Vertical distortion indicates the person's EEG on the left and horizontal distortion indicates the person's EEG on the right. In 1978, Ann Bean and I collaborated on her piece, Silent Conversations.

Nina Sobell

Telepathic drawings in which we communicated non-verbally, creating a heightened awareness of focus and made drawings based on these conversations. Quoted from Ann. And now I'll play Brainwave Drawings, 1973-1983.

Nina Sobell has been intrigued by the idea of being able to capture the emittance of electrical impulses by the brain and transposing them into a graphic image since 1973. She began to collaborate with systems engineer Michael Trivich. On the monitor, two people were able to see their physical as well as mental image. They were able to create one composite brainwave drawing in real time.

Unattributed

Savelle was determined to devise a non-competitive creative environment geared to home TV viewers who could create an active rather than passive TV viewing experience and enhance their ability to communicate. Dr. Barry Sturman of the Sepulveda Veterans Administration Hospital in California offered access to equipment.

Unattributed

As the director of the neuropsychology lab, he was most interested in the psycho-sociological aspects of the piece. Electrodes were attached to the occipital region of the brain, the visual cortex of two participants. They sat comfortably in front of a monitor which displayed their faces and the superimposed composite brainwave information.

Unattributed

The real-time Lise Jou pattern changed in accordance with the brainwave activity. When both people put out the same brainwave, it formed an irregular circular configuration. Non-verbal communication between the participants was the objective. When one person was distracted, it appeared as distortion horizontally or vertically, depending upon the axis which displayed his or her brainwave pattern.

Unattributed

The results were averaged through a PDP-10 computer and proved that two people could influence each other's mind states non-verbally. The EEG video telemetry environment was installed at the Contemporary Arts Museum in Houston, Texas. It was open to public participation. Electrodes were attached to participants in the same manner as in the Sepulveda installation, and an electroencephalogram was given to them. The public could view closed-circuit monitors of the people in the living room environment. And the graph being made, a video projector also played back what others had previously created. Soon after getting a job at the computer store, Sobel began to collaborate with bio-cybernetics engineer Chris Matthews in using computer graphics to enhance brainwave drawing. Sobel, with the support of Dick Heiser, experiments were made using his equipment and an EEG device from the Biofeedback Research Institute.

Unattributed

During the following year, Matthews and Sobel developed computer graphics programs for the piece. By 1981, after experimenting with different patterns, their efforts were recorded in Matthews' laboratory. John Gord built a special effects generator, and other equipment was donated. It was discovered that when one participant made a transition from one brainwave state to another, it often influenced a similar transition in the other person non-verbally.

In 1992, this brainwaves drawing installation was a benchmark piece. A closed-circuit monitor inside the front window of the Bronx River Arts Gallery displayed two people communicating via their brainwaves as they watched their physical image dissolve with their mental communication. People on the street and in the gallery could see this. This is the first time that all of the questions physical space inside and out of the gallery, the communication between the two participants, charting the brainwaves, and a passive audience came together.

Nina Sobell

The image of the two people walking towards each other and the background color indicated the length of time of EEG synchronicity. In 1999, at the Walter Phillips Gallery, BAMF Center for the Arts, Emily Hartzell, Sonia Allen, and I created four web seances. Web seance brainwave drawings illustrated Park Bench's commitment to address the physical disconnectedness of the information age by creating networked seances that connected physical and cyberspace via neural telepresence and meditation.

Nina Sobell

The medium is truly the medium in these seances, in which a web-based, artificially intelligent, chatterbot leads the seance. The website gives the audience a place on the web to join hands, keeps track of those present, and lets them know who else is there with them. The inspiration for web seance brainwave drawings came from being at the Center for Advanced Technology with Emily Hartzell and Sonia Allen, and in comes a call from the Walter Phillips Gallery inviting us to do a show there. And we were just thinking about doing web seances with EEG, and well, that's what we did.

Nina Sobell

Four of them. Thank you.! During one of the seances, Meditations, Memory, Dream, and Fantasy, the medium poses a series of meditations to two EEG artists, one in Banff, one in New York. We watch their eyes and brainwaves and listen to their heartbeats as they ponder each one. Then they and we write about the memory, dream, and fantasy. We've just inhabited.

Nina Sobell

An artist in Banff transcribes their words into drawings on paper. Our stories fill a database from which a voice reads during the performance, mixing with the heartbeats. And we all have an instruction on the page that every five minutes a new meditation will appear on the screen. Think about it and watch the brainwaves of the EEG brainwaves as they think about it too. After two minutes, a box will appear on the screen where you can write about your thoughts on the meditation.

Nina Sobell

All the participants were identified by their IP addresses. In 1999, during the performance Solar, Wind, Weaving Sun and Moon, Anne Bean was on a boat in the English Channel while Anders Manson and I were at the Shattson Hotel. We made one-minute simultaneous drawings every four minutes for one hour before the total solar eclipse.

Nina Sobell

You can see here how they matched up. Please go to my website to see more of them on the timeline and many photos of the event. As we pass out of the shadow, I said at the time, we will know the profound experience people, birds, and all animals will have lived through. Later in Eastern Europe, that by experience alone, we will be closely connected to others.

Nina Sobell

Quoting from the article, The two brainwaves are shown side by side. Thus it is easier to see and compare each of their evolution. Non-verbal communication. The most surprising thing is that the two lines, at times, look perfectly alike. Proof that the two experimenters feel the same emotions? Thinking of you, 2001. In collaboration with Pierre Bjorn of EAT, Experiments in Art and Technology, and Aaron Michelson.

Nina Sobell

Drawing through telepresence, participants at separate physical locations see each other and transmit brainwaves and other human factors over the internet. The real-time convergence of this information flow creates a shared sensory environment for them and for public participants on the web. Thinking of you explores the space between thought and experience in a cyber and physical installation.

Nina Sobell

Participants in physical and cyberspace perceive of the intricacies of personal communication by interpretation and navigation of brainwave energies. They see each other and one composite brainwave drawing they are creating together. By tracking the synchronicity of brainwaves, they can identify the energy of their brainwaves and internal and external portrait forms in this meditative space for the creative process of our collective consciousness to unfold.

Nina Sobell

Brainwave patterns are identifiable by color and tone, morphing and evolving over time by the group mind and interacted with at each location as light and sound sculptures. If you are interested in learning more about brainwaves, This is Mike at the Getty Museum in LA explaining to Ezra and Rio their parallel output of brainwaves in the upper right that they are absolutely similar and at that moment in time as you see on the reconstructed oscilloscope pattern there's a circle forming.

Nina Sobell

So there's... There it is. This is taken from the DVD demo of the app BrainChat. The BrainChat app, which is trademarked and has a functional patent pending since 2010, is an evolution in bio-communication interface technology. BrainChat networks two or more participants, via computer or smartphone, at separate physical locations by transmitting and interpreting brainwave patterns and other physiological factors of each participant. The commercial application of BrainChat utilizes interactive brainwave visual analysis as a means to explore various aspects of human interaction.

Nina Sobell

We're now collaborating with Garrett Flynn of USC's Media Arts, Games, and Health Department and founder of Brains at Play, who's working on an iteration of a real-time internet-based brainwave drawing you see here. Interior, Exterior, Window Street Installations, 1977-1995. In 1995 at Rico Maresca Gallery in New York, Alice Sat Here, Virtual Alice, was the first wireless mobile webcam which, in the late 90s, enabled web visitors or passersby to personally view the interior of the code show. Its key component was a telerobotic camera, Alice's Eye, mounted on a wireless rolling chair. Web users or passersby could control the telerobotic camera's movement remotely, either by directing a person riding around on her, the web user's chauffeur, or via touchpads in the front of the camera. The touchpad was placed in the front window of the gallery through one web interface.

Nina Sobell

The touchpad surrounded a closed-circuit monitor with a camera at the top. Fedbacked passersby's images, dissolving them over the interior of the gallery, so they could virtually feel a part of the show. The video images captured were made available to web viewers in real time. Web participants could also point the camera at a rear-view mirror on the handlebars that identified the face of anyone riding the chair to web viewers.

Nina Sobell

We describe the piece as a passage between physical and cyberspace. We converge from web-side and street-side, explore parallel spaces separated by glass, and peer through the membranes at each other's representations. In fact, Colin Goldberg was in Boston and operated Alice's eye, the camera, to be in the gallery looking around on the web.

Nina Sobell

As you entered the gallery, there was a monologue. The monitor on the right which showed the exterior activity and the interior activity as a passage between both. And here's Alice being driven by a human chauffeur for people on the web directing her and people on the street directing her. Video phone verieur, 1977 in London.

Nina Sobell

Joseph Beuys thought of this piece as a social sculpture because people on the street could make the work their own. Communication is mediated through the closed-circuit video phone system and observable inside the gallery. Spatial boundaries dissolve as the exterior sidewalk space merges with the interior window space.

Nina Sobell

In and out the window, 1979. Artists interviewed each other. Six moving cameras. Cameras moved in sync, capturing the sky and the street and observable inside. Interactive sculptures, 1969 to 1994. The I started by making foam sculpture you could interact with, like the Green Mountain, Instant Night Box, and tubes to roll down hills in.

Nina Sobell

If you can derive joy from inspiration, then that's heavenly. And that's what happened with the foam rubber sculptures. I've derived joy. These sculptures are part of the first video thesis at Cornell in 1971. The cones, the rockable, the remote-control movable ceiling, the balloons, 500 released at 6 a.m. And 500 at noon, were reconstructed on the street. They were built on four monitors inside the gallery for consecutive weeks of taping, reconstructed on four monitors. And as you walked from the four monitors past the six-second time lapse, it reminded you that you were in the present tense, present space, and past the closed circuit monitor, which was the immediate moment and the end of the show.

Nina Sobell

In 1990, right brain, left brain, investigation into the creative process. I forced myself to talk while sculpting Rebecca Yeldon. But when it came time to concentrate on the details of her face, I could no longer speak. In 1994, when I first saw the telerobotic webcam at NYU's Center for Advanced Technology, I thought of doing a live web performance. And so, the first interactive telerobotic webcam performance was born, in collaboration with Emily Hartzell and international webcam participants.

Nina Sobell

Web participants directed by clicking on their monitor's image. For example, when they clicked on the right, they directed the camera to move to the right of their screen. Monitoring that action, I added clay to the right side of the armature. As others clicked at different points around the perimeter of the sculpture, I continued to add clay to the armature and thus a sculpture took form.

Nina Sobell

Video of performances 1973-1982 During the 70s and early 80s, I was doing performances concurrently with brainwave drawings. And to quote Christina Albu, Just as Sobel's video performances involve a gestural dialogue that threatens accepted social norms, her participatory scenario involving the EEG subverts the power of language.

Nina Sobell

Video of performances during the 70s and early 80s, I was doing performances with brainwave

Drawings.

Various current trajectories 2018-2022

Video

Of performances made by wilt and 2016-2018 What inspired Aleph No was Leo Kelbs asking me what my ideas were for the origins of the universe. What images did I think of when I thought of the origins of the universe? And I thought of the tiniest, tiniest speck of dirt forming and flowing and moving and growing. And this is what happened.

Nina Sobell

I'm happy to say that these pieces are now on display at a show called Techspressionism, Digital and Beyond, at the Southampton Arts Centre. Curated by Colin Goldberg. Unseen brings to light from darkness the metaphorical images of the invisible, pervasive viruses penetrating our world. By exposing pictures of the void and rendering these transformations perceptible, a sequence of configurations emerges.

Nina Sobell

First sweeping the earth. Then folding up to the sky and beyond into spatial trajectories. Returning to earth. Blending with the human in hybrid form. What inspired me was being alone and looking up to the sky and shooting and shooting and shooting and shooting the shooting stars. And then pushing and pushing and pushing what I shot. Until it revealed magical transformations on my phone. Always on my phone.

Nina Sobell

These sculptures were formed from an intimate conversation with the clay. What inspired these was making 40 small sculptures for the museum. And then making 40 recipients of the Acker Award. And after I did that, I just kept on going. And that's what inspired me.

Thank you.

Persistent Visions is a very interesting presentation. And as a final question I have for you, could you please tell us a little bit about your work? Thank you.

That was really a very interesting presentation. And as a final question I have for you, Could you please tell us a little bit about your work? Could you give me a few words perhaps, what interests you about Expressionism?

Yes.

Hang on, Nina. Just hang on, I have to put you full screen. Here we go. More. Okay, now you can speak about it. Thanks.

I started using apps in 2015. I used the ShutterSpeed app. And let's see, I'm going to read this. A friend of mine, Antoinette Lafarge, posted an experiment she'd done with a ShutterSpeed app called SlowShutter. And I tried it and then I was, it shed light on me and I joined the app world. And in a way I went to the Lend-A-Vas.

Nina Sobell

I proceeded to experiment and begin connecting with the app world. And began concentrating on making works that were digitally born. And posting them and making prints. When an artist, a friend of mine, who actually was the curator for the show that's in the Desma and the Brooklyn Rail presentations, Roz Dimon, she was the curator for that. She invited me. She was the initial inviter of me to join Techspressionism. And she said, oh, you work, Nina. You have to meet Colin Goldberg. You have to communicate with him. And join Techspressionism. It's a wonderful group. And actually, Colin also mentioned in that video, because he was in Boston, and Patrick Lichty also was in the Desma video, because he was present also in the tele-robotic camera performance.

Nina Sobell

So that was separate. That was on Park Bench even. And after attending a few salons, I was impressed by the group's inclusionism and friendly demeanor. And here I am feeling very much a part of the Techspressionists.

That is great to hear. Thank you so much, Nina, for showing us such interesting presentations and speaking to us about your career and your work. It's been a real pleasure talking with you. Thanks again. And I hope to see you at the next Techspressionist Salon.