Interview 16 // Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

Hello. Today is Wednesday, June 9th, 2021. My name is Colin Goldberg, and I'm here today with artist Paul D. Miller, aka DJ Spooky, that subliminal kid. So welcome, Paul. Thanks so much for joining us. And why don't we jump right in. So usually like I kind of just open up with general question about, you know, if you want to tell us a little bit about your background, like where you were born, where you live, in practice now, and any cultural influences that you'd like to bring up.

Okay, so let's just dive in. First and foremost, just want to say thank you for inviting me on your show. It's always a pleasure. And Colin, it's been real, you know, interesting to get a chance to see the evolution of what you're doing with this whole Techspressionism scenario. All right, so for folks on the audience, what's up? My name is Paul Miller, aka DJ Spooky.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

All right, so I'm from Washington, DC. I grew up near DuPont Circle, but also grew up in another area called Shepherd Park up in an area called Northwest near Silver Spring. Anybody who knows those regions, they're very different. DuPont Circle is where all the embassies are. It's a very beautiful area. My mom had a store called Toast and Strawberries that was at Connecticut Avenue and R Street.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

It's a beautiful area, lots of major buildings and very, you know, just elegant area. Shepherd Park was a little more residential. And I grew up in a, you know, pleasant, relaxed, middle class household. Both my parents were professors. My mom was a historian of design, who taught occasionally at Howard University, and my father was Dean of Howard University's law school. So both parents were, you know, I grew up in a household that viewed social change as a distinct relationship to education, and creating a notion that the politics of change is found in the on research, intense discussion of ideas, and sort of stress testing ideas, and art and poetry and things like that.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

So I grew up, you know, in a household where we had a robust debate about information at every level all the time. And I really feel that informs my current practice. I kind of have like a deep allergic reaction to like a lot of music is just straight up knucklehead stuff so you know you just want to ask people like what are you thinking like why are you doing you know stuff like that long story so that Socratic notion of asking questions about things all the time that's kind of my role gotcha

Gotcha I could definitely relate to that. My parents were both professors as well in the sciences, but certainly like was brought up in a similar fashion, I think in some ways to ask questions and also there was sort of a strong sort of impression made on me about the validity of the scientific method, even though the results change through time. So that definitely I feel like, you know, is something that we have in common is that sort of upbringing with an emphasis on education. And that's really interesting. So in terms of like, you know, where you like your evolution as an artist, can you talk a little bit about that? Like, you know, I think you mentioned when we were speaking earlier that your studies in school weren't necessarily in music and you kind of got into it because, you know, you really just enjoyed it.

Colin Goldberg

Or can you talk a little bit about that evolution?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, the eerie thing about information is it's the foundation and building blocks of everything. And I love the fact that both your parents are professors, but you're also into art and you're into music. I think we have. I think we have a lot of overlap of interest there. How we think about the arts is that the creative mind, the human being. Is always making inquiries into the world around itself. You know, the brain is fascinating. Like a lot of quantum physics people actually, you know, like Schrodinger's paradox or Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Those are things where when you perceive something, you change it.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

You know, down to the subatomic and quantum. Level. There's fascinating studies that show that human beings in the brain, the architecture of the mind actually informs its relationship to the universe. So amusingly and strangely enough, music is the pattern that we speak to the universe, to ourselves, to the world around us. I've always been a huge Sun Ra fan and I'm a big fan of the way that certain avant garde musicians like Sun Ra, John Cage, Ornette Coleman and so on. Made inquiries. And so the notion that jazz and the African-American experience informed.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

Radical change in America. And then on the other end of the spectrum. You know, hip hop, techno, dubstep, all the current electronic music. A lot of people tend to forget that legacy is that it's an African-American diaspora of erasure. You know, so how your culture suffers, whether you're Jewish, you have a diaspora. If you're African-American, you have a diaspora. All of those things are. A kind of a struggle to recollect the fragments of culture. When I say the struggle, music, for example, polyphony, polytonality, you know, all of these poly rhythms. Those come out of the legacy of the African-American collision with European aesthetics. That the slave trade and the migration north after the Civil War. And things like reconstruction. Those influenced all aspects of African-American culture and life.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

I'm. I'm a globalist. I'm an avant-garde artist. I firmly believe in cross-cultural communication at every level. So, you know, how I think about art and my philosophy of design and things like that. Everything you're just talking about, it's kind of like. We're kind of in a very dark moment, very cynical moment post-Trump. I still am shocked that this dude was in office. But politically speaking, we're now in like Jim Crow 2.0. Where all of these kind of new voter suppression laws. And Republicans using stuff like QAnon and algorithmic manipulation. What you call computational propaganda.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

How do we give people antibodies to this sort of pandemic of misinformation? And I think music and the arts are a critical role in giving people better tools for critical thinking. That's kind of my foundation, I think. I really like to push people. And it pisses people off, you know. But so be it.

So, you know. I know in doing a little bit of research on your background. I was reading about, you know, the sort of idea of constructed identity. You know, and I'm interested to sort of hear the origin story behind DJ Spooky. Like, you know, where did that come from? And when did Paul become DJ Spooky? And how did that happen?

Okay. So I went to a very small college called Bowdoin College in Maine. But also when I was younger, I went to a Quaker school. Friends Seminary. I also went to Woodrow Wilson, which is a public school. And I also went to some boarding schools, which I'll leave those out. But education has always been something I'm very interested in.

When I was younger, I was a little bit more of a nerd. Still am.

I read voraciously every day all the time. I'm reading, reading, reading, reading, reading. I would say college was a kind of a foundational moment. Mainly because I was. Presented with a situation where I was really into certain aspects of electronic music. And was very interested in philosophy. And I was also majoring in macroeconomics.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

And macroeconomics is the study of human behaviors as they engage the marketplace. As they engage this notion of what economists call gross domestic product, GDP, growth. You know, all of these things are aspects of what you would call quality of life. Philosophy is like Socrates or Plato would say makes a life worth living. The problem in our time is that we're facing an environment climate crisis with placing a kind of a political crisis. And these have been ongoing.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

Mockery. And to me sampling a collage is kind of like time travel. You're always playing with these ideas of possibilities of permutations of time. And a sample is a fragment, a chronotype. Some people call it, you know, instead of archetype, chronotype is kind of like a collage of many different temporal dimensions.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

So you take a record from 1930, you take a record from 1975, you throw in a baseline from 2022 and you have dubstep. Or. Yeah. Or et cetera, et cetera. And that kind of collage is very related to the literary movement of the beat poets of the 1950s. People like William S. Burroughs, Jack Kerouac. And of course, above all for me, Amiri Baraka, who I had the pleasure and honor to meet years ago. And we did a DJ with him reading poems of this sort of also relate extensively. And in fact, I took my DJ name from William S. Burroughs. So, you know, that kind of idea of using sound. As an acoustic.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

And for this pandemic of misinformation. These are things that I'm kind of thinking about right now. Are you. Gotcha. Gotcha.

I can see some wheels processing.

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's really that's really interesting. So, you know, I know that, you know, you're primarily known for your work as a musician, you know. But I'm also very. Very interested in kind of like your background, you know, with regards to the interdisciplinary work, some, you know, visual projects.

Colin Goldberg

I know that actually yesterday in our Techspressionist Salon, one of the artists who presented an artist by the name of Greg Little, who's one of my graduate advisors, mentioned that he was actually in a show that you had curated. I believe it was called the Invisible App. And so, like, I didn't even know that, you know, you've been involved in. In curatorial projects like that. So I'd be interested to sort of hear, you know, about how you see, you know, how you sort of see yourself as an artist, you know, from a holistic standpoint, that is, you know, how that how those pieces all sort of fit together if there is if they do or, you know, how you sort of see that.

OK, so let's unpack a couple of issues. All right. So I'm a musician, an artist and a writer. So when. When I first moved to New York, I lived in Paris for a couple of years. I moved to New York after that, you know, typical 20s stuff. When I was in my 20s, I moved back to New York in the late 90s, around 97.

We were actually like around the corner from each other.

I found out later, right. I was on a second and you were on, I think, B and second. Right. Or you had a spot that were there.

Avenue B and second street. And there was a club called Save the Robots. There was a place called the garage or the gas station. And so I would throw parties in the gas station that were related to contemporary art mixed with music. And a lot of artists started coming to those parties. You know, it's always a happy accident that music took over because I was very focused on gearing up to go back to graduate school and to get a degree in mostly dealing with foreign policy and macroeconomics inside. I had taken two years off and was having a great time. In Paris, I have to admit, it was wild. It was fun. You know, just a whole new different dimension of freedom. And, you know, I ended up working and hanging out in Paris, DJing, but then also was meeting people at the Shakespeare bookstore in Paris.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

When I moved to New York, it was the world was a lot more flexible about electronic music. And you have downtown people doing art rock. Like I met Thurston Moore from Sonic Youth, Yoko Ono. A lot of people were much more freewheeling. And I think downtown cultures always had that sensibility that it's a mix. Nowadays, it seems like the world is a lot more segregated, a lot more genre specific and a lot more like somebody's Spotify playlist has like segmented reality itself. You know, like if you like, you know, and you have a recommendation engine all the time going, if you like this song, you'll like this song. But you're never going to hear it. You're never going to hear anything new because you're only dealing with an algorithm that's built an acoustic and algorithmic portrait of you. And it's just feeding you crap over and over and over.

I don't like the news.

Yeah.

People are that adventurous.

Yeah. Yeah. Everything is algorithmically driven now. In fact, that's the current book I'm working on. So when you think about it, the 90s was when a lot of the stuff, the experimentation, checking out different styles, moving around, going to different. Events that had different styles and flavors and so on. People don't. They really are now very genre specific. And when it's just a tragedy of our time, actually, I think.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

So I write books as well. Most of my books are with MIT Press. I've been publishing with them for a long time. The current book I'm working on is called Digital Fictions, The Future of Storytelling. My previous books were dealing with sound technology and art. There's a bunch of them. If anybody is so motivated, you can go to DJ Spooky dot com slash. And you can find all these books and they're all there.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

The most well-known book I did is I went to Antarctica with a studio and a backpack, so to speak. And I basically wanted to do I'm fascinated with this idea of acoustic portraits. So how we think about sound is generally this intangible and invisible situation. Some people use sound for mental, you know, like meditation. For example, like Buddhist monks. Some people use sound for physical celebration of the body, like in India, where they have Hindu practices of celebratory like festivals like Kumbh Mela. In the West, we've we've gone into this industrialized situation where sound like techno, hip hop, dubstep, you name it. That's the one part of society where people feel that they can just release and celebrate.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

And on the other hand, how we think about design, like the design of a space, the design. Of a club, the design of these headphones or your headphones or the screen. In forms that kind of invisible and intangible situation that's very coercive, actually, and democracy itself right now in the 21st century because of the relationship with algorithms and with so many of the computational aspects of a data driven society.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

Those are things that have really, you know, made people kind of go into a subconscious moment where they're just propelled by their need to feel. They're sort of. Yeah, hunger that has been created for like advertising and new products and hyper consumption. People are, you know, we're driving ourselves into extinction, basically. I mean, if you talk to any serious scientists right now, you know, there's the Union of Concerned Scientists. They have this thing called the Doomsday Clock.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

And we're like a couple of seconds away from doomsday at this point. It's really humanity. I mean, sorry to be a downer, but yeah, it's anyway, I do think that we can pull back from that if we change the mind, if we change behavior. And I'm a libertarian on some things, actually. When I say libertarian, I do think that given the tools for better critical thinking, I do trust my fellow human beings. The problem is that people have been conditioned by centuries, decades of hyper consumerism, capitalism.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

This notion of the. Scarcity economy that's driving everyone to just grab anything that they can get a hold of. And that makes they think that makes their life better. And amusing enough, there's a lot of studies that show the more you consume, the less happy you are. And thus you're in a terrible cycle, like a wealth accumulation, status accumulation.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

And people, they will spend their entire life trying to live like an Instagram feed, you know, or just. A lot of kids are growing up that way right now. And so I think that's a really important thing to think about. Not that I'm against any of those platforms. It's just you need to be able to be careful and think clearly about how those relationships can transform the mind. I mean, amusing enough, there's a lot of studies that show.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

They're in an attention economy now. Facebook, Twitter, Twitch, Instagram, every platform, they have they need engagement. And you have to your brain actually produces certain neurochemistry. Like serotonin and dopamine when you get when you see that you've gotten a lot of clicks and likes or when your package arrives from Amazon or whatever that actually there's a physiological and neurochemical response and people are studying that and guess what they're monetizing it like Matt? I mean that we're right at the edge of this pandemic and that technology class made more money during the pandemic than almost in human history. So.

Yeah I mean I definitely I relate you know in that you know I'm coming at it as an artist where most of my you know my studio support came from working in the commercial realm you know in advertising and agency work and stuff like that and now you know I'm hearing a lot about you know used to be about demographics and now it's psychographics where you know the individuals being broken down at almost a freudian level you know for consumerist sort of ends you know and it's you know it's on the one hand it's kind of fascinating when you're looking at it from this sort of external standpoint but then from a personal standpoint you know it's frightening so it's strange you know it's a strange world that we live in you know for sure one thing that I wanted to ask you and this is something you know in each of the interviews that I've been involved in is so you know like we were introduced through by christine shuley who's one of the artists that's going to be in the involved in the southampton art center show opening up next spring that you're you know you'd express some interest in being involved in and I just was you know interested in what your sort of interest or take on Techspressionism is you know from the standpoint of an individual artist because I think that you know I think that you know I think that you know what I find most interesting is like you know hearing hearing what artists think about this idea from a first person standpoint you know as I try to sort of develop it into something that gets brought into common usage I think that each person that sort of hears this phrase or word word or whatever you want to call it, comes at it from a different starting point.

Colin Goldberg

So, you know, I was curious what your thoughts are on it.

Sure. I mean, when you think about abstract expressionism, it's generally viewed as post-World War II. And the result of people like, I don't know, Willem de Kooning, Mark Rothko, you know, Joan Mitchell. You know jackson pollock and so on the eerie thing about world war ii and the regrouping after it is that the ideological framing of the cold war set up a situation where you had soviet realism on one hand and then you had they needed to figure out a kind of a mere funhouse reflection of how the american art could actually be a countervailing ideology to that stuff the communist ideology of realism amusing enough you would see like a worker in nature or people kind of celebrating the happiness of being in a communist rule and you know amusingly enough and strangely enough the cia helped sponsor a lot of early abstract expressionist exhibitions so amusingly enough the cold war and the legacy of like kind of ideological framing really set the tone for amusing enough how we think about technology as well so for example during world war ii when I argue this in my current book that I'm working on that world war ii was an information war and so the legacy of encryption cryptography hackers information network systems like arpanet that basically was a message system that was used to for scientists just in case they needed to be able to send messages if there was a nuclear war etc the internet comes out of arpanet and in fact the piece that I'm looking at presenting with your exhibition we're going to have it's called quantopia which stands for generally a quantified utopia and amusingly enough 1969 was when the first two hubs of the internet were created and the first two hubs of the internet were created and the first two hubs of the internet went live it was between ucla and the stanford research institute and so I tacked down the gentleman who wrote a lot of the early equations that set up what you call packet switching which is what allows us to have this video call for example and his name is dr leonard kleinrock he's a legendary figure in the history of the internet.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

And I wrote a symphony based around his work. And that was supposed to tour, but then the pandemic kicked in and set it. So we're just beginning to reboot all of that. And I've been enjoying just having a little bit of relaxed time. So when you think about abstract expressions in the Cold War, the internet is like of a major large-scale system that comes out of this information war and the soviet model again versus the late capitalist model. There's philosophers that inform my work, but mostly I have to admit Paul Virilio, Gilles Deleuze, and of course, Felix Vartari, who wrote a series of works called Mieux Plateau, which stands for a thousand plateaus.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

There's certain younger philosophers, Timothy Morton's book, Hyper Objects is interesting. Many of the people involved with environmental issues who I think inform my practice are people like Bill McKibben, who's there's a couple of books called, you know, after earth, you know, which is, these are people who are investigating the deep structure of climate change. Elizabeth Colbert's book, the six on the sixth great extinction.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

The fun part about post-World War II and your sense of abstract expressionism is transferring it into technology is that human beings have this delusional sense of timeframe. I remember when, I'm using a human being on average now that's around 70 years old. And in that sense of time, since the industrial revolution, we've transformed the planet in ways that would have been unimaginable without major catastrophe, like volcanic actions, viewing huge clouds of ash into the air and causing a nuclear winter or something like that.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

And amusingly enough, the greenhouse gases and carbon that we've released, you know, we've heated up the planet that we're taking it back to some other crazy era that would have been like dinosaurs walking around and stuff like that. I mean, it's just mind boggling how crazy our hyper-consumerism is driving the planet. And that's what I wrote about with my book about Antarctica.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

So, like I said, I'm going to keep referring you guys to djspooky.com. If you, if any of this, there's plenty of images that go with everything I'm talking about. A lot of research I've worked with. Major scientists, Brian Green, who wrote this book, he wrote, he's his most, that's one of the most famous books, but he's head of Columbia university's physics department. He wrote the introduction of my book, the current book, digital fictions. I'm going to be working with some pretty legendary figures from data analysis on over to kind of thinking about the role that a data driven society can play with this idea of algorithmic, realism, you know, instead of when you think about abstract expressionism, my nickname now is like algorithmic realism. How do we think of the algorithms and computational models driving all of the current churn or swirl of the metaverse of information swirling around us right now?

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

So,

Yeah, do you want to share, share your screen and show a little bit about of Quantopia or any, you know, anything you want it to share visually. And, you know, like, since you've been involved with the project, it actually kind of led me to rethink, you know, we have a section on the website on Techspressionism called the Techspressionist visual artist index. And I sort of eliminated the word visual from it recently. You know, and then your involvement, you know, made me kind of rethink, like, you know, it's very limiting to think of it in that way. And certainly, you know, a lot of the artists, you know, I'm involved in, in the group, work in a, in a multimedia fashion where audio is a component, you know, so I'm really interested in what you're doing with the, the Quantopia project and how that relates to expressionism.

Okay. So let's just walk you through a couple of things and I'm just going to do a quick thing here. So this is the internet in 1969. The first two hubs went live in October and by December there was two more. So the total of four, you can already see it. And it's sort of an exponential pattern going on here. Two squared is four and just for any math geeks out there. So by the time you start to think about the legacy of all these hubs and nodes, and of course now we would call them data centers, the hubs that make up the backbone of the internet, they're not the web. People tend to confuse the web and the internet. So Quantopia is like, occupies that kind of indeterminate space between the web and the internet. And as a composer, I'm very intrigued with this idea of logarithmic or algorithmic, expression.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

And amusingly enough, the term algorithm is Arabic and it comes from a very renowned Arabic mathematician. And I'm, I'm highly influenced by, Archimedes as well, who was a very renowned Greek mathematician. And the fun part about this is, Archimedes and, Al-Khwadizati, who's to me, musingly and strangely enough, if you start to think about playfulness and reverence for numbers, the West is tricky. I mean, for example, we didn't have the concept of zero for a long time and the Greeks and Romans, there's a lot of history of the idea of zero. And the funny thing about zeros and ones is what makes up the entire internet now. And the history of zero, is really a kind of a legacy of conflict.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

In fact, for example, Fibonacci, who's wrote this book, Liber Abaci, amusing of the Pope at that time, banned the number zero because they felt that it was the number of the devil and all sorts of tricks were going on. So imagine if you're a mathematician in the middle of the Cold War and you're commissioned to make this thing that you can have equations, be able to send messages over the internet with this thing called ARPANET that eventually of course became the internet.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

And you need to come up with better equations to send that data. That's what I'm talking about here. So what I ended up doing was, there's a small chorus you can't see in the background. It's the San Francisco Young Women's Choir. Regretfully, they're wearing black, but those billions of nodes you're seeing in the background, those are computed by Roger Antonsen, who's a very renowned Norwegian, mathematician and Greg Niemeyer, who's the head of the digital media department at UC Berkeley.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

We did a three-way collaboration about math, music, and art. So the string quartet is playing. I'm sampling elements of the electronic motifs that are going back and forth with them. And so Quantopia, again, stands for quantified utopia. And the pun here is that utopia comes from the ancient Greek term utopos, a place of no place. And of course, anyone out there, it played a...

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

In this area that writers like William Gibson, who coined this term cyberspace, we've gone down the rabbit hole. We're in Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland moment here. So I'm trying as much as possible to have a series of music works that are sort of an acoustic mirror that you hold up to. So all those dots are data center, kind of metaphors. And as the concert goes on, you see billions and billions and billions of dots going around, mainly because they're related to the internet of things and the various objects that interact with data, mostly now mobile, of course. Most people in America have a cell phone. Your average cell phone has more computational power than almost all computers on the planet in 1969. So...

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

And we're moving... We're moving out of Moore's law of computing. All of these things are legacy issues that hang over my work. All right. So... When I do all the graphics for my work, what I'll probably do with your exhibition is take Quantopia elements and then have them as visual motifs that you can remix and be able to have interact with the actual musical material.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

And again, this is a multi-dimensional project. It's not just visual. It's not just visual. It's not just music. But it's the Gestalt, as they say in German. The sum of the parts actually transcends the actual element, much like the internet. So... With that said and done, to me at least, that's the most current project. That and my book that I'm working on called Digital Fictions. Both of... Quantopia is mostly finished.

Paul D. Miller aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid

Digital Fictions is not. I'm working on it. It's taking a while. You know, time is elastic in the time of our pandemic. So... So yeah. Hopefully that answers your question. Shows you a little bit of elements. There's plenty more. But I'd like to leave the audience with a sensibility that they can kind

Of do a little bit of research and we're all good.

Awesome.

Awesome.

So yeah, it's almost 1.50. Do you have any closing questions, comments?

I just wanted to say, you know, thank you. You know, I really appreciate your time and, you know, your involvement in the project kind of, I feel has brought it to another level and made a lot of the people who are strictly, you know, visual artists who have been involved in Techspressionism really start to expand their notions of what the term could be applicable towards, including myself, you know, and definitely have a lot of respect for your work and also, you know, the mentality of not needing to, you know, to live in a box, you know, not needing to be in a category necessarily, you know, and I think that's a really, it's a, it's a, it's a liberating sort of notion, you know, as an artist to be able to cross fields, cross disciplines and, and not feel the need to do that, you know, so I have a lot of, a lot of respect for that.

Colin Goldberg

And yeah, you know, just want to, again, say, say, thank you for your, your time and for your time. Thank you for your participation. Look forward to sort of, you know, an ongoing collaboration and helping put this show together. I think it's going to be an awesome exhibition and that's going to be opening up at South Hampton Arts Center in April, 2022.

Colin Goldberg

So yeah.

Well, Colin, congrats on your show. Yeah. I just want to say to everybody, my website's DJ spooky.com has plenty of reference materials on it. And my books there's usually if you just Google Paul Miller, you'll see the books or you can go to my website, djsboobie.com slash books. There's also djsboobie.com slash art, all of which has bits and pieces of all the various projects. So Colin, it was a pleasure and you know, just everybody out there, you know, wishing you strength in the middle of this pandemic, man. And I hope that we can all see each other in real time. Once this pandemic stuff is we've gotten it under control.

So Colin, thanks again. Thank you.

Thank you. And I just wanted to say one last thing. Paul was also in our. A text question is salon meetup a couple of weeks ago. That's on the, on the website as well. Techspressionism.com slash salon. And that was salon number 18. So he's on there and shared a bunch of his work. On that. On that recording as well. So. Yeah, that's about it. And thanks everyone for joining us. And we'll see you next time. Okay.