Interview 15 // Darcy Gerbarg

Good afternoon. Today is June 1st, 2021, and we are doing a Techspressionism interview for the group Techspressionism, and our artist today is Darcy Gerbarg. My name is Roz Dimon and I've been working in digital media and playing in that field seriously for about 30 years after responding to a digital world in my oil paintings where all of my pieces filled up with pixels. But today we're going to focus on Darcy's work. She's doing some very exciting work in this field. And before we start I just want to read a few things about Darcy.

Roz Dimon

Darcy Gerbarg has lived in the United States for over 30 years. She has long been established as one of the major pioneers in the digital arts field. Gerbarg continues to push the limits of digital technology in her latest group of billboard sized paintings and large scale sculptures. This is a quote from museum director and curator Cynthia Goodman.

Roz Dimon

Darcy herself says, I straddle two worlds, the art world and the computer world. My work is a record of what the latest technology is capable of. It is a record of what the latest technology is capable of. It is a record of what the latest technology is capable of. I am fascinated by visual complexity that incorporates real and virtual objects captured as a painting in a 2D picture plane or experienced in a fully immersive 3D VR world.

Roz Dimon

Gerbarg incorporates the artifacts of the times. She quote traces the technology and the image that then becomes physical. This is said from curator Steina Gustafson. This is said from curator Steina Gustafson. While the images may appear to have elements reminiscent of traditional still life or landscape painting abstracted, further study reveals unexpected visual turns. The paintings have a new palette and feel, resulting in an updated aesthetic, markers of our time.

Roz Dimon

Gerbarg's pictures challenge viewers to determine what is real and what is an illusion. Words from again curator David S. Rubin. Welcome, Darcy. It is so great to have you here this afternoon to be with us for an Expressionism interview. Just to begin, can you tell us a little about your background, where you were born, where you live now in practice and some cultural influences?

Roz Dimon

Okay.

I was born in Baltimore, Maryland. I was born in Baltimore, Maryland. I grew up in Hurley and then Kingston, New York. I have two younger sisters and a younger brother. I was a country girl and spent most of my free time on my horse and pony riding in the cornfields in the Catskill Mountains. My parents were city people. I always made things from whatever materials were available. And I took painting lessons with artists in Woodstock from an early age.

Darcy Gerbarg

I loved doing origami. And one of my father's hobbies was math. So we all solved math problems for fun. I started using a mini computer in my father's office when I was in high school. Kingston was an IBM town at that time.

That's really fascinating.

I don't want to interrupt you.

Did you want to say more? No. That's okay. Great. There's a little bit of an echo here. I'm not sure why that is.

I don't know.

Yeah. But anyway, you know what I find interesting, having looked at your work, is that's what's so great to hear about people's background a little bit. I mean, the whole, you know, origami, the sort of abstract, beautiful images that are made from origami and the fact that math was also, you know, part of you and just the fact that you were able to do that. I mean, I think that's, I never envisioned you actually out in the country on a pony, but that sounds pretty wonderful, too. And is nature influenced?

Actually, I had horses, again, oh, I had horses for maybe 25 years, up until about two years ago, when my last one finally got very old and passed away. Oh, you know. So I've been riding, basically, my whole life. And I'm still in the Catskills when I'm not in my studio in New York. And yeah,

So. Yeah, I wondered about that motion of being on a horse or being out in the woods or the nature. Is that an influence or is that just a great way for you to get out of the box of the computer and out into another world?

Well, I think all of my early paintings were kind of drawings of the Catskill Mountains, those rolling interlocking hills. Oh. They were just, you know, what I saw out my window growing up. And then I was riding in the mountains. And so I've been in them my whole life. So I love green. I like being out in nature. Absolutely.

Darcy Gerbarg

I have to say something.

We were just talking online into Expressionism the other day. And someone said how they cannot stand. I think it was the color green. They can't work with green. And I don't do very well with it. And I know, having looked at your paintings, that you do very well with green. So I had to just. I love green. It's probably my favorite color. I love it.

I love it. That is so cool. And most people think I'm a city girl. Because I've had my loft in Manhattan since the early 70s. And you said your parents were city people from the city, I guess. They were from Philadelphia, my parents, actually. Yeah. And they moved to the country, basically, when they were young. And I was, you know, very young.

So what were some of your other cultural influences? I mean, you know, it doesn't have to be other artists, but it can be. Obviously, nature and green and the rolling hills. I can already see that a little in your work, even though I don't want to speak for you. But, you know, other influences where you went, oh. I mean, was it a sudden thing when you said I'm an artist? Or was that a gradual thing? Or it seems like you've kind of been doing this since you were a child almost.

Actually, it took me a long time to figure out that I could be an artist. I thought artists were born. And I didn't have that. I didn't have any artists in my family. And it didn't occur to me that I actually could be an artist. I just always made art. But, you know, I took art classes. I liked it a lot. I didn't think it could be my life's work. I didn't think being an artist was even a career. I knew nothing. I was a country girl, kind of, you know.

Darcy Gerbarg

And it took until, it wasn't until I took a leave of absence from the University of Pennsylvania in my junior year of college. Okay. I moved to New York. Well, I got married for a year. That did not work out well. I moved to New York. And within a couple of weeks of that move, I met the living abstract artists and color field painters. And became a member of what was essentially Glenn Greenberg's group of artists. Oh, really? Yeah. And they continue to be lifelong friends. Many of them have passed away by now. But the ones my age, some of them are still alive. Some of us are still around. Larry Poons is still alive. He was a little, he was in between in age, basically. Wow.

Yeah.

So I also attended the New York Studio School of Drawing, Painting, and Sculpture in New York. I don't know if you're familiar with that.

Is that the one on 13th Street?

No, it's on 8th Street.

Yes, I am familiar with it.

It's a very special place. It's very special. Yeah. It's only really serious artist's place, basically. Yeah. And it gave me the opportunity to copy at the Met. Wonderful. And to experience working with the model, working from the model, nine to five, five days a week. I was there full time, you know. And to work shoulder to shoulder with other serious young artists. It was amazing. We would work all day from the model. Two people would be responsible for making lunch for every person. Everybody in the school. Everybody would pay $2. You'd collect the $2. You'd go buy the food. You'd make a big buffet, you know, lunch for everybody. And then there were lectures almost every night. Oh, yeah. And on weekends, I'd do studio visits with Clem Greenberg and other artists in that group. We'd go to all the art exhibitions at lots of galleries, at the museums, cleverly tours.

Darcy Gerbarg

Sometimes, I remember we had one situation. There must have been 20 of us at the Met. And in those days, in the early 70s, the art museums were empty. There was never anybody in them. And so we would be in, I remember being in a really big room. And it was Old Masters, I think Rembrandt and a whole bunch of other Old Masters, kind of from that period. And we all, and Clem had us all in a great big circle in this room. And he said, okay, if money was no object, which one would you take home?

Darcy Gerbarg

And then he would call on you. It was scary. I bet. And it taught you to see and to compare and to really think about what you were seeing and really look at stuff. And I really learned to see in that way. Oh, that's a wonderful statement, to learn how to see. It's all about that. And look and see what you're, you know, and artists do see other things when they look and they look at artwork. And they see not, you know, as you know from studying art. I do.

And just being out there in the world and working with other artists. And what's interesting is that other artists see different things than we do. Like I focus on negative space. Absolutely. I might point out something in a Rembrandt that someone else wouldn't see at all. But, you know, it's great to have teachers and mentors.

Yeah. So that was great. Yeah. That's like art, art, art all the time at that place, I bet. I was in my early 20s. Okay. The first museum exhibition opening that I went to was Jules Oblitsky's retrospective at the Boston Museum of Fine Art. It was curated by Kenworth Moffitt, who was the director. And Jules was a friend and Clem and a whole bunch of us went to this opening and the whole thing. We were all part of the thing. And here I was in my early 20s, right. And I just assumed that was what happened when you got more established as a museum. But then you got into this space and you found yourself as an artist. So you start out as an art student. You work and then, you know, eventually this is how your career evolves. And then you have these openings at the museums.

Then you get into the mat and then it's all good.

I knew nothing.

Wow.

I knew nothing. I just was young and doing it. So I had decided that I was just going to do it whether I could or not. It didn't matter. I was miserable not doing it.

Yeah.

It was nothing else that I really wanted to do. And that's it. I just started doing it and I just did it, you know, continue to do more of it.

That's great. That was really interesting, that whole story. I actually was on a panel with Robert Gottlieb when he was still alive down there at the Spring Street Studio one time. They had wonderful programs there and still do, you know, that people are invited to that I've been to that have been fantastic. So what a great experience for you. It's wonderful to hear.

And they still do amazing things at the studio school. And I'm still a little involved with them. I mean, it's, you know.

It's, they're seriously interested in drawing and painting in the visual language of art. So yeah, what a wonderful experience that you've had and it's great. Meanwhile, in my own studio.

So meanwhile, I'm going to school there full time. I'm painting from the model, but in my own studio, which I have on Broadway, a loft, I'm painting these little things. Abstract acrylic paintings on the floor, getting up on my ladder to look down on them. You know, it's like all at the same time, basically. That's great. That's exciting to picture. When you're young, you can keep doing stuff, right? Forever. What's that? When you're young, you can keep working. You just keep working and working. So I guess my major influence is in terms of artists, Rapalek, and Falkner. And Frankenthaler and Olinsky and Koons. And then I love Kandinsky and his courage and his color and space and clay. Paul Clay was, you know, one of the early artists I really, it's easy to really love, I think. Yeah. And then for space on a picture plane, I really was fascinated by Cezanne and Matisse.

Darcy Gerbarg

And I looked a lot at Chinese painting. I just, because they, they used a different aspect ratio for their artworks. They were long and narrow, either horizontal or vertical. They, and the space was just very different. And so that's what interested me.

You know, I love your, I remember, there must be some kind of a devices of recording. Sometimes when there are two audio things in one room, we'll get an echo. I know I don't have one here, so I'm not sure what it is, but I like your answer. I love your answer so much because I remember that, that film interview, I can't remember what the guy's name, but he would always ask people, what would be the one question you'd ask or who's the most influential? Your answer is so, I mean, how can you pick one? I mean, every artist is different. So I love how you went from Kandinsky to clay to, you know, all the way to, to, I don't know. Chinese paintings?

Roz Dimon

Yes. I mean, it just, you know, you covered, and the China, yeah, the Chinese paintings to another continent and, you know, the whole art history is so important to, to, you know, to art. And I loved that was, that was a really interesting answer, which I appreciate. Would you like to maybe share your screen if you're comfortable with that and maybe show us a few things, you know, a little bit about your process or.

Okay. Let's see. Let me see if I can do this.

While you're doing that, I can just say that I've been in to see her in her world, which I think I'm accurately saying is AR. AR? No, it's VR. It's VR. Excuse me. It's VR. And it's just been so exciting to go with Darcy into her, her playground where you immerse into her work in this field. So that was exciting to do.

Are you able to see the screen? Can you see this at all? Yeah. All right. Let me get this in some whatever state. So let's not start with this one though. Let's start here. I like to kind of start showing things that are a little more traditional. Sure. So this is actually what the art world thinks of as a virtual art gallery. Okay. This is. This is not really immersive, but you can kind of. It's a 3D model of a gallery available online.

Darcy Gerbarg

And it was created for the Hampton Virtual Art Fair in 2020. And this was their first try at doing anything digital. And I first started using the computers. And I was like, I'm going to make this zoom in. We can go back to me. Oh, this is. This is. In terms of understanding and thinking about virtual.

Darcy Gerbarg

Yeah. Beautiful. So. So basically. Exploring ways to get my digital out of the computer. Computer in physical media, okay? And these printers using archival inks weren't available until fairly recently. Now you can print paintings on canvas. So a painting that you see is like this at these scales on canvas. And they're actually stretched and framed, okay? And they've been shown in exhibitions physically as well as virtually like that.

Do you make them into editions or are they original? Do you make them originals or how do you deal with that?

Everything at these scales is a this scale. However, I've decided to make editions of 150 of smaller scale pieces, like 18 by 18 or something like that. Yeah. And I'm doing some of these images, smaller scale as an edition. Additions I've just started that we'll see how that goes. So, since 2016 I've been painting with colored light with tilt brush and taking the unity model to the world in a few different ways.

Darcy Gerbarg

I said I learned about, okay I didn't. I learned about cropping images in Larry Poon's studio one day when I was there with Glenn Greenberg. Larry as you know, takes buckets of paint, throws them at the wall which is complete, his walls are completely covered. Ceiling to floor in canvas, and he throws paint at them, and it all drips down. This is one way that he was working at that time. He's done other things.

Darcy Gerbarg

And then you would crop out the part that was the painting and stretch frame. So that's what I do in tilt brush.

Okay.

So I have this 3D light sculpture that I've painted all around me. And I have a camera. And I crop out the paintings that I want to make. Out of it. And then I take them into Photoshop. And I play with the color and the background and the scale and I crop it. And I turn it into a painting. And that's what this one on the left, the green one here is, Twilight. That's how I made that one. Okay?

Backing up just one minute. Maybe I missed something but when you're using your tilt brush, you're actually painting with that brush in space, aren't you, to begin with?

In three dimensions I'm painting with colored light brushes. In tilt brush. In tilt brush. All around myself.

And at one point does your mind say, oh, I want to crop that. That feels, that's what I want for my painting. And you take a

I can take a snapshot. And take hundreds of snaps. Okay? Interesting. And then I have a hundred of these snapshots and I take a couple of them and I turn them into paintings.

How's the resolution comply when you take a snapshot?

Very high resolution. I set it for very high resolution.

Oh, I see. Yeah.

So this painting on here is about eight foot, right? Or something like that. Yeah. All right? Yeah, there's that one crop. Okay. Now, the one on the left is from what I call the series. All right? The one on the right is from my inside-outside series. Right? And there's some more of those in this way. They do seem to have a different point of view now, you know, visually. I'll tell you what it is. Uh-oh. Why is this doing that? I don't know why it's doing that.

Darcy Gerbarg

So these guys, for instance, these are my series inside-outside pictures. Okay? And for instance, I take my 3D VR light sculpture, which I paint in the brush, okay? And I take it as an object into the real world. All right? And in the world, I take a snapshot across the. Okay? But in addition to the model, I can work in snapshot with it. So I actually am taking a snapshot of the AR object in the real world.

I see now what you mean by real world. I can almost feel like a part of New York City now. Which is. Wow, that's very cool. There's an interesting juxtaposition of space and time. And it's really interesting. And it's so spontaneous looking, too. There's energy in your work.

And that's because of the action. You know, it's like you're taking a snapshot of the actual space. And so they.

And it's all in a. You know? Digital.

.

Right. The multi.

So for instance, this one on the right is in a room. And over here, I'm sorry. Over here, you can see some flowers that were. And. So I really like the idea of not trying to make it look like a real world. So I keep that. I don't have to. I want to add the visual complexity. So know that this is with an AR object. Because it's an abstract thing. Yeah. That's because it works. It's always interesting to kind of hear the art.

Well, this is because they work because they're paintings. That's. You know, see. And you can way after that and going after it. And that's.

But the other thing I love is that I like these. There's one that's on the left. It's called. It's almost like a. Yeah. Or. I thought of. And the middle is. And I don't know what you're talking about. Picture. And this, I put my AR in a dark room at party. Cool. And you can actually read it.

It's not a real thing

On your lawn. That's correct. But I did take it out on my lawn. Yes, I see. And I took snapshots. I have paintings of it out on my lawn. Oh, there's a network error here. Oh, well, that doesn't matter. This was an early video that I created for CADF in Miami. And we let people, oh,

I'm sorry.

This was an earlier version. This is the same sculpture that I used in that painting, that green painting that you saw. You see the blue brush strokes? Yes.

The same structure, but it's just a piece of palette. Right? You can see this

Is an earlier version. A lot more paintings on the wall. Cynthia Goodman said, we've got too much work in here. I think there are only two of us.

Hold on, it's hard to hear you with the music. Oh,

Sorry. Oh, thank you. I didn't know where that was. That's good. All of the bad feelings after something. Here is the rainbow, wow. Rainbow. I can see fear obstacles is it's gonna be hey is

It wow that was cool you know I must relate to you also it looks like you have a small team that you work with I certainly work on collaborations with my diamondscapes that are kind of immersive paintings I mean it almost you know it almost it begs collaboration in a way even though I guess do you still see yourself as the director or

How did they come about well I see myself as the artist and then my husband is my main collaborator and he's a senior level tech person who's been he was head of r d at magi synthavision which right was the 3d animation production company that did most of the work for the movie tron the original tron oh yes of course and so gene's been in the field a very long time and very knowledgeable about lighting shading everything digital computer animation graphics all of that stuff and so that

Was a marvelous immersive experience

That was now this one which I which you visited me in remember yes and you are the one that's in the back of the ΦVHx and you have a very good person you have a very good use of the who you are you have a very good use of the in-the-wars you have a very good use of the in-the-wars you have a very good use of the in-the-wars you have a very good use of the in-the-wars

You have a very good use of the in-the-wars you have a very good use of the in-the-wars

And the dome is actually a photograph of the playa at night. Very cool.

Now, Darcy, when people interact like, say, in the show in Miami, do they go inside a Unity headset or something? Or how does that happen?

No, no, no. You can just see this on your laptop.

No, no, no. In Miami.

Oh, I'm sorry. In Miami. Yes, we did bring headsets. Yeah, I wondered how. And people put on headsets and they got to and they could walk around in it if they wanted to. But we mostly had them sit in a chair because it was a little too crazy in the middle of an art fair for them to be wandering around, you know. Right, right, right.

Yeah, exactly.

But they could turn around and they could look, you know, they were free to really experience it.

I think that gives us a really good idea of what your work's about. Do you want to go into the keynote or no? Why can't I?

Why can't I go into this one?

Hi, Jean. Oh, okay.

Sorry. And then you can, okay, go a little right. Okay.

Oh, it's not a video. It actually goes in and out. Can you make it go faster?

Yeah, hold the shift key down. Okay.

You can do this online as well.

I did it when I went online with you to do it. Yeah. Oh, I forget how to fly in this.

You can't fly in this particular.

Oh, we can't fly online. That's the only thing.

I did fly.

Yeah, I flew when I did it. I realize you're just doing it.

I'm saying on the website you can't fly. Sure.

Is there some kind of URL or something you want to give people who are watching this who might want to, or is there any way they can? Sure.

It's my name. It's DarcyGerbarg.com.

You can go to the video and interact with it.

And if you go to the immersive experiences section, you can look at all of these and enjoy all of them. Great.

And are you still making these physical paintings as well in?

Oh, yeah.

As objects? Yeah.

And these are just really large, some of them. In fact, I just made another one of these light sculptures yesterday, which is quite different from these. And we're doing another world for Burning Man for this year. It'll be quite a bit different than this one. Oh, that's great. And I'm having a collaborator who is a composer.

Darcy Gerbarg

And so we have sound in the light sculptures, and it's so wonderful.

Oh, yeah, that's great. I didn't actually realize there was an online Burning Man, but I guess with last year, there probably had to be.

There was last year, and there will be this year as well. Great. Yeah, so we've started working on that. Well, you know, you can take a look at these guys. So this is what this work is like. And this is a different way, really, of having an art exhibition. But Cynthia Goodman, you know, Dr. Goodman, who's the, she, Cynthia was the director of the IBM Museum of Art and Technology. Right. Right. And she was a curator at the Metropolitan Museum of Art and at the, I think the Guggenheim. She's written a lot of art books and a lot of articles. She did one of the articles in the first SIGGRAPH art show catalogs.

I do recall her name from way back, you know, she's very respected.

She's done some really cool work.

She was the co-chair

Of Kwanju Biennale with Nam June Paik. Oh, cool. I really like his work a lot, too. Yeah, well, he's, yeah. Oh, I wish I was in California to see the show there now.

Oh, is there a Nam June Paik retrospective?

Yeah. Well, should we, I think that's time to stop scrolling. I think so, too.

I think so, too. And it's been, it's been wonderful to talk with you, you know, and see your work. It's very exciting what you're doing. And everybody knows they can go to your website, d-a-r-c-y-g-e-r-b-a-r-g.com and immerse in some of these pieces themselves. I wanted to ask you a few more questions.

Roz Dimon

Do you want to stop sharing or, I don't know, you have to not share.

Yeah. I'll stop sharing. It's at the top, the red thing, if it's all the way at the top of your screen. Oh, yeah. Stop share. There you go.

There you go. We're back. Oh, Darcy, that was really very fascinating. It was good. Yeah. Really fun.

Well, I'm inviting people to come if they'd like to visit any of these worlds, either with their laptop or if they have Oculus Quest goggles. Just contact me. You can contact me at director at darcygehrbarg.com. And set up a time to come visit.

That's great. Before we close out this session, I want to thank you and just ask you, because we're doing this via Techspressionism, can you speak for a minute about what interests you about Techspressionism?

Oh, yeah. As soon as I saw the term, I thought, oh, it perfectly describes my work. I've been calling myself an abstract expressionist artist who works with computers. There you go. So Techspressionism is exactly who I am, really. I mean, that's what the work is. It's expressionism using technology. Right. So expressionism kind of says it all. And then Colin is wonderful.

Darcy Gerbarg

And I like the professional artists who gravitate to this new kind of field, this new area. It's great. It's just very energized. Everybody's very enthusiastic. It's very nonjudgmental, which has its pros and cons. It's a mix of professional artists and anything goes kind of thing. But it's great. I, you know.

Yeah, I'm going to step in and just say that Techspressionism has a salon every two weeks that certain people who, if they tag their work with the tag Techspressionism and Instagram, they're going to tag it. You know, they're going to tag it on Instagram or elsewhere. And Colin who's Colin Goldberg who started Techspressionism, if he looks at your work and invites you in, you are invited to the salon. And it's been a very I agree it is a nonjudgmental space. And I think it's all right to also have some critique of art. But at the same time, it makes people feel very free to show what they're doing. And overall, I'd say the level it has certainly kept my interest much more than I actually thought it would. I mean, there have been some really spectacular presentations.

Much more skewed toward the fine arts than it is toward fantasy and science fiction and, you know, non art focused things.

Yeah, I agree.

Yeah, I think it's really great.

Well, great. Can you tell us also can you just tell us what you're working on now? I think you did say something about your light sculptures for Burning Man. Online. But if you want to talk about that or anything else for a few minutes.

I'm really excited about. Which I wasn't originally about exploring other kinds of interaction in these virtual worlds with art. So, I'm starting, you know, I've been to visit a lot of virtual worlds, and there are things about them that work and don't work for me. But I think we have the opportunity to create new ways to experience art. When you're using new tools as an artist, it changes what your work looks like. Because as you use the tool, you find new things to do with it and new things you want to explore with it and so the look of your work changes. We all know that.

Yeah.

But also, I think that COVID has given us a kind of opportunity to bring new things into our lives. And so I think it's important to bring in more people to the digital world in general. And so, whereas a few years ago, galleries that I was interested in would say, oh, we're kind of afraid of computers. Now, you can't be afraid of computers. Everybody has seen enough of it that you can bring in more people from who have more interest in art, more of a focus on art. Who are interested in seeing what artists are doing today, who are serious artists.

Darcy Gerbarg

And so it turns out, as I said, I've done several of these worlds already. And I generally, when I bring people in who don't have any experience in using goggles or virtual worlds, I bring them into an environment that is reminiscent of what they already know. So they're already in it. It looks just like the art galleries they're used to. And since then, And I think that's a really good way to do it. And I think that's a really good way to do it. And Cynthia Goodman tells me that when you go around and look at the art, it's pretty much a similar experience to actually looking at the work on the walls. You go up to it, you know, and all that. She said it's quite similar. But then, as it evolves, you can show people it's really not physical. And look what you can do because it's not physical.

Darcy Gerbarg

And you're not obeying the laws of gravity or other physical laws.

You just want That's an excellent point. Yes. I mean, you can almost be closer to something because your body isn't there.

But the thing about the virtual world that you don't have in these other just 3D models of artworks on your laptop is this feeling of presence. When you are an avatar in a virtual world, your brain absolutely believes that you are there. You feel like you're actually there. It's not that you're not there. It's not that you're not there. I mean, you don't lose sight of the fact that you're actually home wherever you are. But you feel like it's the same feeling as physically really being there. Yes. You can put your arms kind of around things. You can see other people's movements.

Darcy Gerbarg

And the avatars in alt space VR, for instance, are very expressive. So you can, when you move, you're moving like this. And you can see the avatar move. And the hands are moving. And the hands are expressive. And the mouth, you know. So it's a different kind of experience to be in a virtual world than to just look at a 3D model. Now, it's gotten very confused. The terminology has gotten confused. The art world calls those virtual galleries.

Darcy Gerbarg

But they're not virtual worlds. They're just a 3D model of an art gallery.

Yes.

With a simulation of two-dimensional paintings. And you can see the paintings put on the simulated walls in a three-dimensional space that you can move around in.

Yeah.

That is not the same as when you have goggles

On and you are in a virtual environment where you really feel like you're in it all around. You're not moving by characters. You're actually, you can walk around. You can turn around. You can move. So. I had my husband put horses in my virtual world. So you can get on a horse and ride a horse around and look at the artwork.

Oh, my gosh. We may never see you again. We'll go, oh, she's out there on the playa on her palomino.

Exactly. Exactly. And. So cool. Now that I'm working with this composer. Oh, it's so wonderful. Oh, so wonderful. You go into one of these light sculptures. And the sound is placed spatially around. And so as you're kind of floating around in there, you hear the sound and it's spatial. So it combines together.

Darcy Gerbarg

And more or less depending on where you are. And so you're seeing out into the world through all these 3D colored brush strokes. And you have this wonderful music. And now I feel sad when I'm in my world without sound. I miss it already. And I only just got it with sound. And he's only done one. And he's doing all the rest. So he's just started on a second one. So I'm very excited about this.

It's great when you have a simpatico too with a sound or audio.

I've been looking for years. I mean, I have very dear friends who are composers, digital music composers whose work I love. And I love their music and are performers and stuff. But it's very hard to find something that actually will work in one of these light sculptures in this world. But it's great when you have this kind of environment which is very serene and very silent.

Darcy Gerbarg

I'm sure you have to have a real intuition with each other. Shared intuitive collaborative sense.

That is so exciting to hear about. And I have to just say that I remember the first time I ever animated a piece. For me animation is about going deep into a painting and not about kind of going from X and Y but into the Z. And the first time I animated a piece, you don't really think about sound. I mean, as a visual artist, I had not. But I was talking with someone, you know, just conceptually, and they said, oh, well, of course. And they were a sound person. And she said, you know, when you take a step, there is a sound. So it's a logical thing that happens when your art starts to move, that sound becomes part of it, unless you absolutely decide that silence is the sound you want. Right.

I've been looking for over a year for the right sound. And you notice I did take a piece of music and I put it in that video. And it works perfectly there. But I keep trying to figure how to get the rights to that. It's tough.

Oh, yes. Yes.

I would, you know, I'm not making any money on it, but it's not, I would love, you know. Yeah. Well, that's what's great with being with a composer who can kind of make something original with you. Exactly. You know, before, I think you've already answered this question, or I don't believe in answers. I don't think you do either. It's all about the questions. But how do you see before? Before we sign off here, it's been a wonderful session with you. How do you see the future of art from this perspective? I mean, I've been with you through the early digital.com. We saw that rise and fall. But of course, the artist didn't stop making things, you know. But the world had to come back around to it. And it seems it is. And I wonder how you look at everything right now.

Yeah. I've been thinking about this for you. And I'm not sure what level to answer this question on, really. For myself, as long as Tilt Brush and 3D VR worlds continue to interest me, I'll continue making art with these tools. And when they don't, I will move on to new tools. About the art world, that's too big a conversation. Yes. And about art in general, that's also a huge conversation. It is. But one thing I would like to say as an observation. Having really studied art history. And having an awareness of the history of art. Not just Western art, but, you know, Eastern art. Chinese art. 5,000 years. You know, it's a whole. You know, when you look at all that work through time. And this is something that Clem Greenberg said.

Darcy Gerbarg

He said that when you look back over the history of art, when you get enough distance, there is consensus on what the best work of that period was. Right. Okay. No one disputes that. And you can look back and you can say this period, the art was better than that period. And there were. So times in history. The quality of art is better than other times in history. And I believe right now. We're going through a period in history where. Because we have decided to suspend judgment.

Darcy Gerbarg

Because everyone now. Uses the term art. For everything they're doing. Every professional wants to think they're an artist. Okay. Wants to be able to call themselves an artist. Even scientists. I wish that scientists were like the top of the line. Now even scientists and engineers want to be thought of as artists. I don't get that, but. Whatever. I think we now have a situation where sifting through.

Darcy Gerbarg

What's really good today. Is harder than ever. And I think that. And I'm wondering whether the training. In the, in the schools. That the new curators are getting. Is going to provide them with the tools. To be able to select the best work. And so I'm thinking this may not be. A period in the history of mankind. When the finest art is produced. That's my opinion.

Or it may not be recognized until until someone finds the capsule, you know, out there in space in the future or something of

Actually a friend of mine put something in the capsule that's out there.

No, it is a very, we're in a huge shift. I agree. And, and, I didn't expect really an answer, but I think you're, you're very thoughtful about it. And it's interesting. I, I, I feel we're in a whole visual vocabulary, rising visual vocabulary, and some of it's pretty ugly, it'll continue to rise.

Roz Dimon

And I think there's some interesting people like yourself who were doing really-

I'll give you one other gem from Clem Greenberg. I took him to see the computer. Exhibition at ibm that cynthia goodman curated yeah started everson museum and then traveled to several places and but it was funded by ibm yes I saw that show ibm museum I took clem greenberg to see it and we walked through the whole exhibition looking at everything as his want he looked he's probably he probably had seen more artwork on earth than any other living human being period okay and he loved all different kinds of art he wasn't just fixated on one kind of art at all not at all and the big question we were all everybody was asking at that time about art made with computers was whether it was art or not okay you remember oh yeah of course some of them still are so I said to clem after we came out of that art exhibition I said to clem what do you think is it art and he said to me it might be art but it's bad art hmm

Well

Yes everybody's making might be art but that doesn't mean it's good art or great art it's just it's

True it's

True but I can only lead with this f-tap that picasso when he did his dainty d'arvignon which was his big breakthrough out of his you know blue period and classical period into cubism you know a critic came to see him and said you know this is a piece of trash and he put it under his bed and you know it's one of the most famous works ever you know part of it is knowing art history. I mean, these kind of arguments. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

It's one thing to say that, but that is like saying you're going to win the lottery. That's how unlikely that is to happen. Okay. You can't assume that because that happened once with a master artist, a major, major master artist, that everyone should have that hope and put their stuff under the bed. The odds are first that the odds will be through than winning the lottery or getting struck by lightning. So I don't use that as a justification for anything.

I don't know. Maybe you misunderstood my point about it. I'm not sure. I'm not telling people to put their art under the bed.

I know you're not, but you're saying that anything that you're saying is true. I think it could be the next great piece of art, which I don't believe.

No, no, not, no, I'm not saying that. I'm not. But I'm, well, maybe I am. It's possible. I don't think we always recognize things are kind of ugly when they're first like channeling into different roads. But we could talk about this a long time.

That's not true. That has not usually been the case through the history of art number one well

If you don't know art history and you go back and look at jotto you know you go oh look at this painting this isn't so great you know according to like renaissance

But you have to know what he did they might not understand it but there's no sentient being being who wouldn't recognize the quality of something like that it's amazing you do I think education You don't need our training to appreciate really good artworks. You don't.

I'm not sure about that, but you know, maybe we leave that for another discussion. Because I think it's a worthy discussion. It's a good one, but I don't want to just get halfway.

I think we don't want to go because it's too big a topic. I agree with you.

Yeah, it's too big a topic and we want to keep it focused on your work today. That's been really great. And it's been really wonderful to talk with you and thanks for sharing it. And I'm sure I'll see you at a future Techspressionism Salon. And since you're recording this, I'm going to ask that you stop the recording.