Interview 14 // Carter Hodgkin

Hello. Today is May 4th and my name is Roz Dimon and I will be interviewing Carter Hodgkin today as part of the Techspressionism interview series. A little about myself, I've been almost accidentally in digital media since my paintings filled with pixels in the early 80s and it's been an exciting ride and I've continued to work in this medium that I feel is the one that defines our time unlike any other. And enough about me at this point though, I am going to just read a few words about Carter before she and I engage in a casual conversation where we will talk about her work and her life a little bit.

Roz Dimon

Carter Hodgkin fuses art, science, and technology. To explore a new language of abstraction in creating animations, paintings, and large-scale mosaics. Her working process is an interplay between digital means woven into traditional media with an emphasis on the hand. She utilizes a wide range of media from animation and programming to print, paint, and mosaic.

Roz Dimon

Her work has been shown in the US, Europe, and Asia. She has most dasshing works in the field of web art, art on line and film. She has even started on the American Art Foundation. She was in the net for about 20 years. She's now in the present for the women's United States and is a forever running center of power. She's also an artist. She's one of the most successful women in the art world.

Roz Dimon

She's because of her small number of books. She's about to put an end to all of this. There's so much about her and we're going to see what she's going to do. You can see that these are all really important to your life. Completed mosaics for the Mayo Clinic, Capital One, and Neiman Marcus. She lives and works in New York. Wow, that's impressive. Welcome, Carter. Hi. Hi. Good to be with you this afternoon. Yeah, same here. Carter, just to begin for our fellow viewers, can you just tell us a little about your background, where you were born, where you live, and maybe practice, and your basic cultural influences?

Right. Well, I'm from Virginia and grew up west of Washington. I've been living in New York since 1980. I was in the first class of women at the University of Virginia. Took all the art classes and art history they had there, which was, they had a pretty good art history department. But that's when I decided, you know what, I really do want to be an artist. And I ended up at Virginia Commonwealth VCU in Richmond and got a painting and printmaking BFA there.

Carter Hodgkin

After that, I went to San Francisco for four years. Part of my family lives out, lived out there. And, you know, I just really wasn't ready to go to New York at the time. And I'm really glad I went out there. So one thing I could say about, you know, influences is that when I was at VCU, I took some anthropology courses with Colin Turnbull, who was an amazing teacher and anthropologist.

Carter Hodgkin

And it completely opened my mind to the other ways of thinking about life. And I think that's one of the things that I've been that's one of the things that I've been interested in. And I think that's one of the ways of being in different cultures. And it's something I've kept as an interest for the rest of my life, I will. And, you know, I've constantly looked at art from other cultures. And being in San Francisco was a boon to that because of the San Francisco Asian Art Museum and just the incredible mix of people from all over, especially Asia, that live in the United States. And I think that's one of the things that I along with the tech world that started developing while I was out there.

I love what you just said. I'm just going to interrupt a minute here. Listening to you, as part of Techspressionism, which we're both part of, I love how it's not, we talk about technique and technology, but we talk about the larger scope of things and the fact that borders are being crossed. And that's what you just spoke about, which I love. Like, it's not just.

Roz Dimon

As you say, the machine and, and even though that's very important too, but that whole idea of that anthropologist and, and your, your vision affecting your world vision. Yeah,

It really has. That's why I encouraged my students to take anthropology at school. I love that. That's great.

I love hearing about that. You know, when did, did you want to talk about more influences or any?

Well, I mean, in terms of art that I look at, oh, I see a question about when I became an artist. So it was through being a Beatle maniac. I have a little bit of a history of being a Beatle maniac. I have a little bit of a history of being a I just

Loved

The Beatles and whatever. I know I was 12 or 13 and I just started painting their pictures and making some ceramic ashtrays. One of Ringo, I remember. I wish I embroidering sweatshirts with their names. It just, I don't know what happened, but anyhow, that's how I got started. And I love, I've always loved painting and my grandmother gave me a set of paints. Oh, another anecdote was that in my family, if you got your tonsils out, you got to paint by number set.

Carter Hodgkin

How wonderful.

And that's what people think we're doing now with digital, right? You just slap it down and put on the effect. I mean, my God, if you can't draw and paint outside of digital, you're going to have a hard time inside. Right. But that's great.

So, did you get your paint by number set? No, because I didn't get my, my tonsils taken out. Oh dear. Oh, I've made up for it. And I just, I really do love to paint. And when I have taken sculpture classes, I just, I couldn't do it. I'm not a sculptor. Is your interest more in 2d the 2d space? Yeah.

You know, I think, we could talk about your process a little bit, but if you're comfortable, maybe it's always fun just to look at your work while we, you know, talk about these things. So if you're comfortable, why don't we go ahead and just share your screen? Okay. Cause I was going to ask you a little about your process. And when you said you didn't, you know, sculpture, wasn't your thing. No, you dive in. It seems to me looking at some of your work a little bit. I'm learning all the time as I get to know you better, even though our lives have crossed a lot in New York, which is amazing, isn't it? It really is. But there does seem to be, even though they're 2d they're, they seem to encapsulate a huge mysterious space, which I think is part of the allure of the digital. So maybe you'd like to talk more about that.

Roz Dimon

And your problem.

Well, I've been doing this homepage. I have, you know, the top, the top image is my painting work, which has been influenced by my mosaic work, which is the bottom left. And then I also have expanded into animation. My process is using, well, I was influenced as we were talking about Sol LeWitt and the idea of iteration and process and, other procedural drawing, things like that. So in 2004, I had broken my leg and I was sitting around trying to think of what I was doing next. And I found processing, the program processing by Casey Reese and Ben Fryer, I believe their names, that was on the MIT website and started playing around with that. And what I like about it is, not only is it procedural, but, well, I gravitated to atomic particle collisions and now I have to backtrack and say that, an old friend of mine, is a physicist.

Carter Hodgkin

And when I was living in California, he was out there too at Stanford doing, experiments. And I went to visit and he showed me bubble chamber photographs and they just really intrigued me, for their, their random form and, quirkiness and that stayed with me. And I've used, silkscreen, I used to silkscreen images from, bubble chamber collisions

And Do you mind telling me a little, a bubble chamber collision? Can you talk a little more about that? Like what, what is that?

Well, I'm not a physicist, so I can't get into particle physics. But it's about splitting atoms and where all they, they capture and measure where all the particles have gone so they can try to thank you.

That does help though. That does help. I figured we were in that, that sphere for a while. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah.

Thanks. So there are traces, actually, you know, there's a collision in their traces of, where the particles have gone. So what I'm able to do with processing is work, and a trace of the particles that are going to be in the particle. And I attribute behaviors to different particles. I've worked with four different types of particles and attribute like how much gravity or speed or I can do stuff with colors. And I set off a collision and it's, it always gives a random result.

Carter Hodgkin

So, instead of having to rely on somebody else's, you know, photograph somewhere that I've found, I can do this myself. And get different kinds of, collisions going and play around with those. So, like this mosaic here that I just finished, the collision is in the middle right here. It's that's where it starts. And then all the particles go out outward from that. Now this is an installation, right? That you've done? Well, I just finished it. It was a commission at the Mayo Clinic.

So what's the size of this? Just so we can see.

It is eight

And a half feet tall by almost 17 feet wide.

And is this done using this processing, technique that, the software? Yeah.

And so, here's one from Capital One. That one's really big. It's like 11 or more, almost 12 feet high. And then,. Beautiful. And then this one is, 45 feet wide. They're hard to photograph, but you can see when I do the, the closeups, you can get the part. These, tiles are just so gorgeous. I love getting tiles.

Is it partly the pixelated effect at all? Or is that too simple?

Oh yeah. Well, see, I love that.

Each tile represents a pixel in the image. Sure, it's wonderful. So and then the first one I did was at Queens College which is harder to see because it's four, three different floors and nine columns. So these are the columns that go down the hallway. And can we still see that there?

Is that a part? Oh it's permanent. Fantastic. These are all permanent until the building gets trashed. Kudos to you, that's a to have permanent installations. Yeah. May I ask you a quick question? Sure. You come from, you know, you always love painting. And yet I hear you talking about, you know, sort of, I guess, chaos and randomness, and where did that, when you were doing design, I mean, there's a beauty and a form to your pieces, to me, one that has some kind of synthesis.

Roz Dimon

Where did the randomness in the design part, when did it switch over and you go, oh, I want to feed into this processing thing? You know, it's a different kind of process than just making a design on your canvas, or I don't I don't know if I'm making...

Well, in terms of randomness, it's in the collision. It's in making the collision. It's in starting it and making it. Because these particles react to each other, every collision is different.

And I love that. That seems to be very representative of life itself and that mystery and surprise. Right.

Know, the challenge is getting, and the challenge for me always with my work over the last 40 years is like translating this digital aspect or into something concrete and tangible like painting. So, these are an offshoot of this process. And I'm using panels and paper. I color paper and make these.

Carter Hodgkin

This one is a large one. It's six feet high by 120 inches long. Yeah. So, these are some of the newer... This is 40 by 60. So, you can see it's a collage in a way.

Absolutely. Are you working with other softwares and layering or is it, you know, or is...

Well, when I capture one of these images, they get into... Yeah, I bring it into Illustrator. And then I also have... Yeah. So, when you

Start a piece, are you already thinking about the fact that it's going to be six feet high by 12 feet wide or...

Oh, you have to plan out the size for sure.

Exactly. I think that's one thing that also in the discussions lately about, you know, everything from digital art to NFTs is the resolution thing that people don't get. I mean...

Absolutely.

You know, you send someone a postcard of your, say you do an oil painting and they get a postcard in the mail. That's not the same as seeing the Mona Lisa at the Louvre, you know, and that's where I don't think people understand. And we were talking earlier, both of us, about how we are looking for curators to bring education and challenge and really look into the larger aspects of what digital media means, you know.

And what digitizing an image, what are the philosophical and whatever ramifications of that? That's how I got started on this. Because let me go to what I was doing in the 80s when I was leaving California. I was doing this kind of work. It was procedural and with patterning, but it wasn't decorative patterning.

Carter Hodgkin

It was like perceptual patterning. And it was on rice paper with oil pastel and pencil.

I'm a little bit of a dummy. We work differently, even though we share a lot of, I think, the deeper messages in some ways. If you don't mind, when something's procedural versus decorative, is it that one step leads to the other? Yes.

I think so.

These are old, you know, scanned from slides. But these were panels. Put together their paper. And it was almost mathematical, the way they iterated from one to the next. I mean, it's funny.

Paint by numbers. That's what we're all doing a little bit. Underlying it is math, you know, which is fabulous.

This was, I ended up having a show in Japan, which I wasn't able to get to, but that was what it looked like.

Where was that show?

Pardon?

Where in Japan?

Tokyo.

Oh, interesting. Because, yeah. Okay. I've shown in Japan, too. Oh, really? Yeah. I mean, you and I have so many overlaying things.

Yeah. Was it in Tokyo as well?

My first show was in, I think, Sakagura? No, where? It wasn't Tokyo. And I'm forgetting exactly where it was. But I did recently go to Tokyo and talk about my work. Oh, cool. With the 9-11 and 3-11 show. But they seemed very, very into the pop and American and digital scene, you know?

Well, that's the funny thing is, like, I was around the digital stuff in San Francisco, but it was just starting, really. It was, you know, 1979 before I moved to New York. And the thing is, once I got to New York and people were talking about representation. And photography. And I'm like, well, what about the digital?

Carter Hodgkin

Doesn't that mean something, too? And no, it apparently doesn't. Yeah.

There's a lot that needs to, I think, that needs to be learned, explained, and shared. So it's great to have expressionism. It's a wonderful salon for sharing larger concepts of digital.

Yeah.

So this is your procedural earlier. This is in San Francisco. San Francisco still? Yeah.

And I don't know. I mean, I went through the 80s, 90s, and 2000s continually morphing what I've been doing. I also got into Fractal. The idea of Fractal is that incredible book about chaos that was written. And that's all about boundaries dissolving in science.

Yeah. Mandelbrot and the, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And what's happened, I mean, I wrote something about it. I never published it. I should have. But what's happened now with the pandemic is exactly what they were talking about. Boundaries dissolving, people moving from place to place, germs going from place to place, you know, that kind of thing, which I find interesting.

Carter Hodgkin

There are no real boundaries. So when you get into the science of it, I guess.

Absolutely. And I'm thinking back to the installation you just showed us. While I'm looking at this, it looks like it's going linearly linear. But the circle patterns of, like when you're talking about the replications of things in fractals and keep coming around and going around into different arenas is beyond borders, you know, even though it's circular. That's a fascinating kind of concept.

Roz Dimon

Yeah. So. And it's called magnetic bubble memory, oil pastel on Japan paper. I think it's interesting for us to let our viewers know what, you know, what medium at least you're going out with.

Yeah.

Oil pastel. Yeah. Japan paper. Yeah. I mean, I've been told that you don't say rice paper, you say Japan paper. But I got the art supply stores in San Francisco had great panels of Japan paper. So I was really happy. Great. What should I show next? Do you want to see?

Well, you know what? One thing that I love that you said, yeah, I'd love to see a little bit more. But I'm sure our audience would, too, and viewers. But I love what you said that, yes, I always plan what I'm going out to. And I don't know, maybe you want to show us some of your other work while I'm just expressing this thought. But.

Roz Dimon

You know, it's yeah, like, look at these different physical spaces you're going out to. And one thing I don't think people are getting these days is that when we plan a piece, you know, inside, we're thinking it's exactly opposite than taking a painting and making a digital print of it. We're making something digitally and deciding, you know, the sky's the limit as long as the language transfer is there. We can go out to tile, paper, sculpture. I mean, there is a marketability here. Right. And I think you're very much tapping into that. And yeah,

Maybe you're laughing. Like, really, not enough. It's so true, because my concern has always been this translation from a digital file into something tangible. And that's not easy. I mean, it hasn't been for me, at least. I mean, I've done many different bodies of work translating it in different ways. And.

Carter Hodgkin

You know, it's.

This animation was beautiful. If you can tell us a little about this that you're showing right now.

I made these animations. In 2009. And I found out about this place called the LED lab, which is in my neighborhood. They've gone. They're not there anymore. But they. They have all these beautiful. This is a wall right now. Of different resolutions. And the image is just repeating itself going down their wall. But they let me put. And then this is a curved wall they have. They just let me put the files in their controller and. And show all these different. The same file and all these different formations. And they're incredible. As LEDs.

Carter Hodgkin

And I would love to be able to afford. Creating a large. Or not even. A large one. A small one. They're just.

This is a curved LED screen. Mm-hmm.

That one is. Let me fast. That's a big one too. Yeah. So I've been talking to people like. Trying to find a place where I could get them fabricated. Let me go forwards. There. Like I would like to do these spheres or the. Cubes. The spheres. I got one quote from a guy who said it would be a hundred thousand dollars to make. You know, I'm like, oh.

Well, how did you make this one? Because it was the LED lab.

No, it's they made them. I put my file in their controller and it displays my. My animation. It breaks it up into a different form and I'm really fascinated and I love these.

So could you work with them again or maybe I'm missing something.

They basically disappeared. So. That's sad.

When things are really on the innovative track and. You know, then they go and people don't realize how close we were to getting to some new place.

Well, I think it's possible and they are fabricated. They can be fabricated. And I think a lot of people go to China to get them to get stuff. But I don't think there's a huge. Commercial market for these spheres or the cubes. And basically it's the commercial market that drives LEDs right now. Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. Right.

No, I remember one of my first shows of light boxes and so. And everybody thought it was some, oh, that looks like all the commercial pieces in the airport. And I went, well, the reason I'm using this is because I work in a backlit screen and it's, it's got light and it's beautiful. And, you know, we, we have to take objects that were used for certain purpose and help people see them in a new light. But I do love how you're busting through the square here. You know, the, the rectangle, this round, beautiful square. And I think it's, it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful thing to see an LED projected like that. I mean, your piece.

Is doing blinking. Stop. Yeah. I have other ones. Media lab. Some. Media center in Dumbo. The problem with this one. Is that there's color in the animation and it doesn't come across when you. You. In that format for some reason. That these are screens, not LEDs. So that's a different.

Right. Cause it's animated. Right. So. Well, I love the abstract. This of it and the mystery of it. Yeah.

It sounded like fly jet blue. This is different. Exactly. I'm, you know, and I'm, I live near the world trade center and the new one and everything. And. Oculus. And they have these huge, they have hallways full of screens. I'm like, I won't. Can I put my. One of those screens.

Absolutely. Oh, I hope you will be able to, that would be great.

Yeah. Me too.

Are you comfortable for a minute? Because I know we both worked in, I guess you would say corporate commercial spheres as well as fine art. And I think young people are. Very interested in that. You know, when people say, oh, if you made a living as an, as, as an artist, I go, yes. I mean, for me, at least I thought working inside.

Roz Dimon

Corporate. I mean, I was always railing and wanting to get home and do my digital, but it was always symbiotic relationship of being paid and paid well. And using technology and learning new technology. And, and so if you could. You know, the Renaissance never separated those two concepts commercial and so much. And, and I, I think it's at the disadvantage to artists. And I think we're coming out of that, but I wonder if you will. Speak to that. Your perspective.

Well, my. Working career has been waitressing word processing and web. After that. But what happened, you know, I came to New York, I started waitressing and realized that wasn't a good future. I mean, I'd already been doing that, but. You know, it comes to a point where you're like, what am I really going to do here? Yeah. And I learned word processing before. A lot of people. So I made really good money doing that on wall street at law firms, but that.

Carter Hodgkin

Also got tedious. Not exactly fun. And. I got a grant from NYFA. And decided in 1988 and I decided, you know what? I'm going to go back to school. A friend of mine had been doing slide stuff and said. We need people that know Photoshop. So do you remember Burton Monroe? Of course.

Yes. I know. Yeah. I visited him in San Francisco. SVA and.

Yeah. Illustrator and.

SVA. I forgot that. Was he teaching at SVA?

Well, he was there when I taught, I mean, when I took a class. And that was only a month. I don't remember.

For people who may not know. I'm just remembering that. We'll have a larger audience listening. School of visual arts. In New York city. And they were one of the really early players. Absolutely. You know, Bruce Wands. Had some wonderful exhibitions going and was teaching and it was the early, I took the earliest courses there. Me too. In 84.

Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah.

I was thrilled to death. Four colors on an IBM. I mean, oh my God.

So when were you there? And. I was there in 88. No, I, those fractal things I was doing was before that. So I was using some sort of paint program. I cannot remember it to save my life. So I was already using. I was using the computer to generate. Forms. And I was painting on wood. Projecting tracing the forms and painting on wood and making these totems because I kept.

Carter Hodgkin

Having that anthropology in my head. I'm like, you know, this, there's some sort of correspondence here. With the past and the present. Anyway, so I was making totems. Digital type of. I was making a lot of. I was making a lot of. A painting and a totem. Anyway. And I got that grant and went to SVA and then. I started working. At Dow Jones. For a CD ROM design. And I also worked at a place called edge works. I don't know if you remember that place, but. Familiar. The guy who was a partner had developed after effects. He invented it. Oh, wow. And they were digitizing film. That was their whole thing. And that was in 93 or four. 94 is when I started doing web design. I got a call from someone. And then I was off to the races doing web design.

Did you enjoy that as a, you know, more than.

So much fun.

Yes. Like word processing that's where you can really use your creative and. And multi. Level talents, you know?

I was the only woman at the place and I was also older than most people there. But it was just a lot of fun, a lot of fun. And, you know, I stopped in 2014. Cause I couldn't do that. Plus the. Commissions. Mosaic commission and teaching at the same time. It was too much.

That's a great problem to have. That's a successful story.

I'd say. And that also everything had changed by then. And it was a, it was a little bit different. But it was really about coding more than design. I think. So.

And being part of what I would say the early.com, which, you know, we in Techspressionism and we have a lot of young compatriots there younger. Where we're kind of, I think it's nice to tie the dots because you know, we talk about everything from going, I hope even more going back to the past and the Renaissance and, you know, the first left the lithographs were done, you know, or the first edgings by Rembrandt and they weren't even numbered. I mean, you know, in the early days of technology, people are out there exploring together and it's exciting time. And the nineties were like that, I feel. And I feel we're at a certain different. We took a decade to kind of get going again. It's not a certainly different level. The whole world has gotten digital. Better or worse, but I think it's an interesting tie in history to.

Roz Dimon

For us to be telling our stories and connecting it to what we're doing. I think that's what's going on today and. And, and seeing where we move forward. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm not so interested in the AR and VR aspect of things. Even though I would like to do. AR like. Have someone be in front of a painting and then. Click on something and have the painting kind of animate. Yeah.

That's sort of what I was doing with the diamond scapes. I mean, for me, it was kind of like the beauty of this space. This is about going inside a still image in that Z space. Deep, deep, deep in the Z. Not really going across the screen. Which is again about pixels, which. Even in your work. I mean, you know, the 2d aspect. There's so much that can happen in that flat. Spiritual plane. It's unbelievable.

Roz Dimon

Lots of activity. Activity. Can you tell us what you're working on now? We're probably going to wrap up in a few minutes here, unless you want to show us something before that.

Well, I'm just really working on these paintings. I'm just doing a lot of these in my studio. I'm kind of working with somebody, an institution on some stuff as a commission, but I'm really just working as a painter in a way. I love that.

Someone once told me, one of my teachers said, sometime when you're not, you get focused, you're doing a series or you have a commission or some big project. And then sometime when you're in that space where the mind is just kind of sitting, like, you know, the CUNY, you're sitting in a space of some kind.

Roz Dimon

Splash something down and you're not really going anywhere in particular, then something new, some kernel or something takes place. And who knows, even 10 years later, you might more fully develop it. But I think it's a real creative, you have to have rocking chair time as an artist. You can totally producing every second.

Roz Dimon

And further to that, I just wanted to ask you to share what interests you about a Techspressionism within what we're talking about right now.

What interests me are the different people that are in different ages, different backgrounds, and this incredibly interesting community of people that we've formed. I mean, I wasn't thinking I'd get involved in it. I'm, you know, here in my studio, blah, blah, blah. But it's really compelling to feel like you have a community. It's good to have a community. And I... Do you mind if we stop sharing?

Maybe we go back to before we stop. Oh, yes. Full screen. Oh, yeah.

Stop sharing.

Yeah, it's fine.

Yeah, it's good to have a community of people to talk to that you get to a different level of conversation with.

I agree. Yeah, it has been an exciting place. And I'm glad you're part of it.

Thank you.

I am too. Thanks. Yeah.

We have some openings coming up soon. We'll put in the pitch. Yeah. There's one tomorrow night, NFT Now. Right. And we've had our first collaboration show, Tech Specialism. And you can go to techspecialism.com and hear about all of these things. Have you thought about doing a collaboration with anyone? Or are you just...

Well, I haven't had time to look at the video that you all made. Which I think is important. I'm glad that people are doing that because then I get a better sense of what I could do or, you know, might inspire me to do that. Yeah.

There's plenty to do. I understand. We can't do it all. Before we... It's been wonderful to talk to you, right?

We only touched the surface, I feel, in a way.

We're going to go out for coffee.

Yeah, most definitely. Most definitely. And before... Oh, did you know by any chance Kenneth Snelson? I met him. Once. Yeah. Yeah. I just wondered if his work... Because he actually did work with the Tensegrity and the Atom. And it was... You know, he's a sculptor, so it's a little different. But I just wondered if your paths ever crossed.

He worked for an art lawyer at one point, Jerry Ordover. And he, yeah, he was a client. So yeah, I met him that way.

Yeah. Nice guy. Well, there are just so many points and references. Yeah. But before we stop, and thank you so much, do you have anything you want to say about how you see the future of art and maybe thoughts about digital? We've talked about how we keep waiting for like the critics and curators to see this as the revolution it is or...

I would just like I was saying, I would recommend this book by Madeleine Hoy called... I think that's her name. From Point to Pixel. And it really is an in-depth understanding of a much more complex and complex art. And it's about how we can create a future of art that's more open. And I think that's an important part of it. And I think that's an important part of it. And I think that's an important part of it. And I think that's an important part of it. And I think that's an important part of it. And I think that's an important part of it. And I think that's an important part of it. And I think that's an important part of it. And I think that's an important part of it. And I think that's an important part of it. And I think that's an important part of it. And I think that's an important part of it.

Carter Hodgkin

And I think that's an important part of it. And I think that's an important part of it. And I think that's an important part of it. And I think that's an important part of it. And I think that's an important part of it. And I think that's an important part of it. And I think that's a reaction rather than like really speaking to what does this all mean the digital what does that mean to the art and art history that's my question

I hear you because the deeper exploration if we're not too fearful is one of extreme excitement yeah

And

I

Just think it has significance in a way that needs to be explored and talked about and written about and curated about well

I'm hopeful we have more of that on a deeper level and thank you Carter so much it's been great to speak with you we're signing on right now I'm going to stop the recording and thank you again