Interview 12 // Gregory Little

Hello, today's April 14th, 2021. My name is Patrick Lichty, and I'm here today with Gregory Little, who's in Oberlin, Ohio, and he is a mixed media artist, digital artist, painter, sculptor, and so on. Is that accurate? Sure. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. So, welcome to

Techspressionism.

Yeah, totally. Exactly. So, well, let's just dive into it. So, tell the audience about yourself. You know, it's like, now this is interesting. I know where you were born, you know, and so, and where you're now, you were born in Indiana.

I was born in Indiana.

You were born in Indiana. Everyone's favorite.

My favorite state, right? Exactly. So, what are your culture influences? You know, where, you know, and where are you living and working now and all that sort of thing? Where are you born? Where are you now? What's your culture influences? Okay. Cultural influences.

So, I was born in a small

Sort

Of, well, I was born in a small farming community with some industry, a little bit suburban, but lots of farms. Okay. Okay. All white. The Klan was nearby all the time.

Oh, my God.

Yeah. Yeah, I saw the... Yeah, anyway, I won't get into that. But that did have a strong influence on me, I would say. I went to Indiana University for college. I could not wait to get away. And so going to Indiana University was a way to do that. I studied painting and drawing and philosophy and art history and Italian cinema and all kinds of things at Indiana. It was the greatest thing ever. I loved it there. I spent six years there getting all kinds of minors.

Gregory Little

And then I applied to graduate schools in painting. I wanted to continue doing what I was doing. And I got into Yale and four other schools and decided to go to Yale. That's not bad. Yeah, it was cool. That's all right. It was culture shock for me, but it was cool. As a graduate student, it was a very different kind of environment than being a Yale-y undergrad. It was kind of a different kind of context. But there I studied primarily with Andrew Forge and Elizabeth Murray and a little bit with Mel Bauchner and Judy Fath. But I'd say... I'd say that Elizabeth and Andrew were my main influences. So I was always an abstract painter and always interested in... Or semi-abstract painter, I guess, at times.

And always interested in expressionism,

Which is part of what brings me to technical expressionism.

Yeah, exactly.

I spent my undergraduate days trying to outpaint the Kooning, which was quite a challenge. Who hasn't? Yeah, right? That's what we all did. I was... I was a 17th generation abstract expressionist, right? And let's see. So that's the background from...

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when did this hit you? When did the epiphany come upon you that you were thinking about? You know, that... You know, that... What made you... What was the epiphany that told you were an artist? And when was it? And, you know, how did this make you go, boom, I'm going to do this?

Patrick Lichty

For me, it wasn't really an epiphany.

It was... It was just part of who I was. Okay. I know when I was five years old or four years old, six years old, I learned to express myself through drawing and through painting, mainly. And it became... It became a way into my psyche. It was a way to express things that I couldn't seem to express otherwise.

Gregory Little

And so it was just part of me. It was never... It wasn't a choice. Yeah. The only choice I made really was to not become a race car driver. That was my second choice as a young man. And, you know...

What... What... The question is... The question is... Is it an oval rally or sprint? Grand Prix. Oh, okay. Well, there you go.

Well, if you're going to do it that... That would have been all right. Yeah.

Grand Prix. But, yeah, I didn't do that. But, yeah, it was not a choice, Patrick. There was nothing epiphanous about it. It was...

All right.

It's just what I did.

Yeah, yeah. So, thank you.

That became part of my ego and it became, oh, yeah, give it to him. He can draw or, you know... We need a map, Greg. Can you make a map? We need... You know, it became part of my identity. Through that.

Yeah, we need a... We need a picture of the cat on the wall. So, it's like...

Can you do that? Yeah, exactly.

Can you do that? Okay, sure, sure, sure. Yeah. So, thing is, you kind of talked about your... About your upbringing and who you studied with at Yale and how they shaped you and that sort of thing. But the thing is, is that beyond your upbringing and beyond your education, you know, where do you draw influence from?

Oh, now. Sure. I draw a lot. A lot of my influence comes from science. Okay. Speculation, scientific speculation theory, especially genetics and particle physics. I don't pretend to understand them, but I draw influence from them. I find the images and ideas and thoughts to be utterly fascinating. Yeah. And also from... Sorry. Also from literature, from writers, other writers, like Nabokov and Foster Wallace and writers like that. Yeah. I draw a lot from there. And just through observation of nature. I think one of the things about growing up in Indiana, close to the land, so to speak, was, you know, I became contemplative of nature and its forces. And I think that has had a strong effect on my work as well.

Sure. Sure. Sure. This is a little side thing. Is that... Have you seen the bit about the new discovery about the muon wobble and how that might... Yes. You know, might redefine

Physics?

Yeah. And that sort of thing. What do you think?

Well, it's the next step after Higgs, you know? Yeah. Yeah. What do I think? I think it's... It's just so fascinating. Exactly.

Right?

Trying to visualize these things is what I'm always about. My daughter does a lot of work with genetics. She's an analytical chemist. And I'm always like, well, what does it look like? Well, how can you... And, you know, she looks at me like, I don't know. It doesn't look like anything. It's numbers, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah. But, yeah. So... But, yes, I think it's cool.

Yeah.

I mean, the thing is, I'm just wondering...

Then what does it mean symbolically to us as human beings? In other words, is that, you know, does the universe wobble and gyrate in ways that we have no idea about now?

Well, we don't know what to look for. You know, it's all there. It's really a matter of knowing what to look for. Because it's all... If you can't look for something, if you don't know what you're looking for, you're blind to it. But, yes, the universe wobbles. Yes. I mean, the fact that, you know, the perfect symmetry...

Gregory Little

The perfect notion just completely destroyed by Higgs is another fascinating thing.

Yeah, yeah. It's like, you know, how do you see green if you're a cat? Yes.

That's right. Is the refrigerator...

Is the light on in the refrigerator when the door is closed? Yeah, exactly.

Well, yeah. Yep. That makes me want to go and go check the refrigerator, but I'm not at home at the moment.

It doesn't matter.

Yeah, probably so. So, yeah. So, okay. Well, we're... Yeah, before we start looking at your work, what's your process like? You know, what's... I mean, the thing is, I mean, I know your work very well. Yeah. And the thing is that, I mean, you have these really interesting hybrid processes. And so, if you could tell the audience about that.

Yeah. Well, this is... You know, I'm old. I've been doing this for a long time. So, the process has evolved slowly for many, many years at this point. So, you know, as I stated, I started out in... I started out in painting and drawing, and I've always kept my hand in that. And I have a great bit of knowledge, you know, frankly, about paints and pigments and all that stuff. So, there's that. And then, in around 99...

Gregory Little

No, I'm sorry. Around 89, I started working digitally with stuff. I became very interested in what I could do for my paintings with a computer, which is not how it ended up working. But I... I stopped painting altogether for 15 years, probably, and developed all these digital processes. The conversion or sort of aha or epiphanous moment that I may have had was when I met Jaron Lanier and put on a head-mounted display in 1991.

Gregory Little

And watched a low poly count lobster wander around the kitchen and was like... My mind was blown, not by the lobster or the kitchen or the poly count. But by the potential that I saw there. And so, at that point, I stopped painting, which was a really unrealistic... Unrealistic and... Well, unrealistic thought on mine and impulse on my part because I had no idea how computers worked. I never had a... I never even had a computer. So, I began trying to make virtual reality in 1990, 1991.

Gregory Little

And so, through that process, I learned all these digital practices. Self-taught entirely. And also began teaching them, which I taught the first VR class probably in the Midwest. Maybe. I don't know. But it was in 1992. I taught a VR class at Kent State University. And so, that... Then I began... And I've always been a lover of jazz and music. And that has some influence on the work as well. So, at this point, I've circled back around where I am now.

Gregory Little

I'm now painting. I'm grinding pigments. I'm building supports. But I'm working on virtual environments. I have a library of assets that I've been creating for 15 years. And I can just draw these assets and make them virtual, make them digital, make them corporeal. Cut them out. Stick them together. So, it's just... It's become a very, for me, satisfying kind of flow between the virtual, the digital, and the physical. And I don't even know the difference anymore at this point.

Yeah, yeah.

So, that's kind of where I am. So, I'm combining somewhat cutting-edge technologies with ancient technologies in a pretty unselfconscious way, I think, at this point.

Yeah, yeah. And the other thing is that I might add in there is that, I mean, you definitely do have... The thing I think is very interesting is that I think that with your work... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You kind of merge elements of the notion of physics and the transmutative notion of physics as it might relate to alchemy. Sure, sure. In other words, in some ways, they're almost maybe analogous processes in different traditions.

Yeah. I mean, I would support that. I think that the mention of alchemy these days makes me cringe a little bit because it's so... I mean, everyone's into alchemy these days, right? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

But, you know, I just totally see your point. Yeah. It was much more literally involved, I guess, or... Yeah. Yeah, literally involved in alchemy years ago.

Yeah, I think that rather

Than the popular conception of it now is just maybe the metaphorical conception of it as the notion of transformation and transmutation of... Transmutation, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly. You know... When one of the... When one of the elements within the transmutation process becomes, say, big data or something like that, you know...

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, that's kind of like a little bit of a...

Genetic algorithm.

Yeah, it's kind of a little bit of a deeper read. Yeah. Yeah. So, anyway. So, okay. Well, why don't we... Why don't we... Why don't we take a look at... Some stuff? Yeah, let's take a look at some stuff. And then, you know...

Do you want me to show you what I'm working on right now? Or do you want me to show you some background?

Maybe... Well, you know, maybe a little... Maybe a little earlier stuff. And then let's go in here. Maybe, like, you know, 10-ish pieces, you know?

Yeah, I've got some stuff. Okay. So, what do I... Let's see. So, I just click on...

So, you just share screen. Yep.

And desktop. So, it has a... Well, desktop one. Let's see. Let's see which desktop this is. I have two desktops running here and I'm not sure.

I usually have too many tabs open, you know, myself. So, it usually takes me 10 minutes to figure it out. Okay.

So, let me try this. Tell me what happens.

Okay.

It wants me to open the system preferences to grant access.

Ah. Okay. Zoom. Yep.

Later. Okay.

So, just for reference, we're... We're talking to you in your studio in back of the house, right?

Correct. Yes.

Yeah, yeah. Just a little context. Yep. Okay.

Yeah. Now, this is my studio. I won't show you around that, but... Okay.

Okay.

So, what do you see?

Yeah, yeah. It's okay. Just...

Okay. So, what we want to do is... Okay. Now, we're going to open...

Okay.

Okay. Here it is. Grant access.

All right. All right. All right. Here we go. We've got some stuff.

Here we go. Okay. Okay. Do we have a Caravaggio there? Mm-hmm.

Okay.

There we go. Okay. Yep. So do you see Caravaggio? I sure do. Okay.

So this is really old. And this is when I first met Jaron Lanier and started working with computers and thinking about virtual reality. The first thing that occurred to me was, well, what are we going to look like to each other? And this was before the term avatar had become assigned to virtual environments. So this was one of my speculations on a creature in virtual space. These are all done Photoshop and sometimes pre-Photoshop back in the day. But working with computers like in 89 or 90 and in the university, I was like, oh, this is going to be a lot of fun. And then I realized that diversity was a weird thing because most people working with computers were not artists and they were coders and they really knew what they were doing. And I was a very suspicious character and was assigned to work at night and all kinds of stuff.

Gregory Little

And it was about the same time that Simon Penny declared that the computer was a weapon. Yep. That basically making art on the computer, you're using a weapon to make art. And of course, there's a history of that with people like John Whitney and stuff. But that really colored kind of the way I thought about the tool that I was using. It was all very transgressive feeling to me at the time. This is a piece that you might remember.

I sure do, actually.

Okay. So, yeah, this was a virtual reality piece done in virtual reality modeling language in about, what, mid-90s maybe, Patrick? Yep. Yeah, and it was a virtual world for a handheld device. And this is before the iPhone or the iPad or any of that kind of stuff. And this was in a show that Patrick curated called Through the Looking Glass, I think it was.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was late 90s. But coding a world in virtual reality modeling language that would fit on a handheld device was an arduous and difficult task. I think the whole thing was about 18K. Yeah. And then on the other end, I did some residencies when I was trying to learn about virtual reality. And this was a residency done in Middlesbrough at the University of Teesside in UK. And this was inside their hemispherium, which was this gigantic half a sphere, hemisphere screen that was driven by three or four refrigerator-sized silicon graphics. And they let me come in and work at night for about three weeks and build a virtual world. So this is what I gained some experience with that. This is another residency done at Brown University. And this is inside of a virtual reality cave environment.

Gregory Little

And that's, again, about mid-90s, I guess.

Yep.

This is a still shot from a virtual world that I made. I worked on this VR project for about eight years. Right. Which is a great project. Yeah. Again, it was extremely unrealistic because there were so few people I could show my work to. Sure. There were no places really to show it. And I was starting from scratch.

Gregory Little

This is an installation done somewhat later when I stopped working with VR and started working more with straight-ahead coded animations. So these are 3D animations projected large scale that are done entirely in code. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I was working with a 3D engine. Yep.

Remember it well. Yep.

And detail. I was working with some DNA software. I was basically taking protein sequences and modeling them in Maya and converting the numbers to coordinates and things like that. So later projection project done also in Blitz 3D called Birds of Ohio. And then I was working with a 3D modeler called the this is the most basic 3D modeler I've ever

Done. And I just made and are very treat that I'm going to make and that is for this video. And I'm going to start with the same 3D modeler. And I'm going to start

With the same 3D modeler. And I'm going to start with the same 3D modeler.

And I'm going to start with the same 3D modeler. And I'm going to start with the same 3D modeler.

And I'm going to start with the same 3D modeler. And I'm going to start with the same 3D modeler. Is this concept that I ran across coined by Lewis Fine, who was a colleague of Doug Engelbart. 1958,

If I'm correct.

I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. For 1960. And I became very interested in the history of computation as part of the history of new media art or digital art. And the issue was, at the time, was what to do with computers after World War II. So they have all these equipment sitting around, all these experts, all this stuff going on. And a decision was made by Engelbart and friends, including Fine, that computers computation should be used to enhance the computer. And so I was very interested in that. Yeah.

Gregory Little

So Fine was part of that. And this concept of synodics was a concept that in his mind joined input from all different worlds, all different ways of measuring into a single concept or something that was... The sum of which was greater than... Or the total of which was greater than the sum of its parts. Yeah. Which was kind of interesting as a thought. And so I thought of these images as a kind of a slice through a synodic landscape where the genetic, the astrophysical, the diagrammatic, the alchemic, all these things could kind of come together at once. The gray stripe down the center was the emergence of the news stream or world of images that we live in, that we... Just kind of coming in like... Yeah. Static or like a crack in the space, which is... Yeah.

Gregory Little

So that's from that series, which is an ongoing series. There were four at the time this photo was taken. I think there are about eight of them now. I work on things for a very long time. The first one of these was done in 2006 and I'm still working on the series. That's 15 years later. Okay. Yeah. This is another installation of... This is a one, two, three, eight channel video installation.

Gregory Little

I was working on an animation based on a composition by a colleague of mine, Jeffrey Mumford, who's a new music composer. And this composition was called Echoes and it was in 12 movements. And so I was doing 12 different animations, one for each movement. Okay. And in this case, Okay. I decided rather than putting it... Having it be kind of a linear event to have it be a kind of all at once event. So all at this point, eight of the movements that I had animated are playing at the same time. Right. And so you can walk around through the space. So your ability to navigate the temporal quality of the music is through walking around rather

Than... So what year is this? This is 2016.

Okay. I think. Yeah.

Okay. We're nearing up on things.

Yeah. And then this is current now. So we are... Okay. I left... Obviously I had to leave out a lot of stuff, but... Sure, sure.... You know, when you're in a new environment, I have your life is about editing. So... Of course. Yeah. So that's that.

That's kind of it. Okay. Any questions? Yeah, yeah. So... Do you have anything to expand on?

What's that? Anything you want to hear more about before I show you what I'm working on now?

Well, you know... So, you know, how does this notion of what we're doing in kind of revisiting the notion of expressionism, you know, through the use of technology, you know, how does that resonate with you?

Oh, it's totally, totally, totally overrides with what I've always felt was lacking in so much digital culture, you know, kind of subjective expression that was tied to something, potentially, something that's not digital. Yeah. You know, it's like, you know, we're using the internet to do something physical or corporeal. So, yeah, it works really well for me. Like I said, when I first started working with computers, you know, I'd be sitting at, as I said, at night in some math lab or something working on a computer screen and I'd always have to hide what was on my screen or replace it quickly with something else because I didn't see... Want people to see what I was doing, explain it and I didn't have time. I was needing to get work done. And, you know, but the sort of these sort of generic gray boxes that we were surrounded by at the time just was screaming for some kind of expression, you know, and...

Yeah, yeah. It's all very left brain Apollonian, isn't it?

Oh, totally. Yeah.

So, I mean, that's, I mean, that's the thing I want to bounce off you is this notion that somehow we think that, you know, the, that the machine, somehow something other than human, in other words, because it isn't made of flesh and blood and that sort of things that it, that somehow is something other than human. But if you look at it more closely, the keyboard is made for the hand, you know, the, the monitor using RGB is, you know, completely tailored to the rods and cones, I mean, to the, to the cones. And then the thing is, is that, you know, why, why then, you know, can't we think that, you know, from a McLunas perspective, you know, we're not going to be able to see the! Computer as a computer, right? Because we're going to be able to see the computer as a computer. Yeah. You know, that the computer is, you know, just another, you know, emotional or affective, you know, extension of the human existence, right?

It is. It is. And, you know, good and bad. Of course. Bad and the ugly, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, and my feeling, you know, initially when I began working with them was that I was, my job was kind of a subversive one because I did feel that the people, that were, that I was surrounded by who were working on computers at the time were often, you know, they were, they were, they were not expressive. They were not terribly expressive people. It seemed to me at least. Their, their interests were pretty narrow and how they saw computation was very narrow as well and not did not seem at all to me in the spirit of engelbart and fine and vannevar bush and people like that who really had a very different vision for how the computer should work so yeah of course it is it is an extension of those things and those

Things are kind of I think the keyboard

All kind of stale at this point. We, you know, we need to go somewhere else. People are with things like Magic Leap and stuff, but long ways to go, you know?

Yeah. May, may magically rest in peace at this point. I know exactly. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

So I hear the Quest 2 has, hand recognition, just to recognize.

It does. It does. It does.

It does pretty well.

Yeah. I haven't, I don't have a Quest 2 yet. I'm still a couple of years behind on the head mounted displays. I put on, I put my first one on, as I said, back in 92.

And I did, I did 94. So yeah. And, and with the same person.

Yes.

You know, so that's, yeah, exactly. He, he was the, he probably, he and Shara Davies later on probably did as much to popularize, you know, the, the, creative creative notions of VR as anybody, don't you think?

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And where has Char gone? I think, I think she's painting now, but she was painting before too, but yeah.

Yeah.

These are forgotten names that we need to bring back.

Of course, of course, of course.

Virtual reality, which is, you know, running through another wave of popularity these days without talking about Char. But no one does, so we have to do it.

Yeah, exactly. And then you have some interesting people like Brenda Laurel and then Nicole Stinger and Marcus Novak. And, you know, it's like, you know, these are, yeah, I think these are people we should. Margaret Dolinsky. Well, you know, you know something? She is, she's our next interview too.

Oh, good.

Yeah, so that's it, you know, and then, you know, Margaret and then Cynthia Beth Rubin and, you know, just, you know, exactly.

Cynthia is the person who sat me down at the computer for the first time.

Really?

Yes. She had purchased one workstation. This is how things used to be. She had one workstation for the art department and students would make appointments. And it was sitting in a little room in the library. And she let me make an appointment too. So I sat down in front of her. That's. And that's where it started. So it's all her fault.

There you go. Well, I got to blame somebody. It's all Cindy's fault. Yeah, there you go. So let's see here. So this is what you're working on currently, right?

Yeah. So I can show you what I did was because the things that I'm, most of the things I'm working on right now.

Okay.

I mean, are objects that hang on the wall. So I just thought I would show them to you.

Okay. And I can kind of talk over these.

Sure.

That'd be great.

I do want to go to the screen. Why is it not going? There. Okay. Yeah. So this is, this is a painting that this is painted over a digital print on canvas. So it's an archival inkjet print and I decided surface and I wanted to switch up the color. So this is a hand ground pigment and acrylic emulsion on canvas.

Gregory Little

And are

You using turquoise or?

Yes, that is pure turquoise.

That's fantastic.

Yeah. Yeah. I tried to see what I could get away with, which is the four colors. And, you know, I'm still working on it. As you can see at the bottom, I'm adding some stuff.

Yeah.

Another one that's in process. This one I've been working on literally since 2014. It was started out as a little sketch in a sketchbook. And then that got scanned, printed on canvas. And then I began painting and collaging and cutting over it and then reprinting things. That's a, that's some sort of a. Spaghetti waste from a 3D printer that'll become integrated into the surface there.

Gregory Little

And these are scientific based on some scientific images of wave formations.

And do you have do you have your own large format printer? I don't know.

I'm able to get one through the university. I see. The College of Great Teaching Lorain County Community. Yeah.

Yeah.

And so one of the reasons that I. Interesting. I like teaching is. Because it's one of the few fields that actually supports this kind of research.

That's true.

I like that.

Access is good.

Yeah. So these are just some, some details.

Yeah. Those are really interesting. That's really interesting.

So even, even when I was making virtual realities for caves and head mounted displays, everyone said, wow, they're so painterly. You know.

Yeah.

This is a series of these are some assets. Again, these were created in 2015 using a 3D modeling app on the iPad that Autodesk had for a while that no longer exists where you could kind of sculpt these objects using your finger on iPad.

That's really interesting. Yeah. What was the name of the app?

I don't remember. It's no longer exists.

I can't even access the files. Unbelievable.

You can see that shape then, some of those shapes then become other works. And these are 3D models, which I'm also animating these days using some things from Adobe Mixamo, where I can assign like mocap data to them, which is pretty funky stuff. Here's some of the pigments that I...

Your material library. Very nice. What's the range of materials you're using for your pigments?

Oh, well, I use a lot of stuff. I find colors that I just fall in love with. It's a very sensual process for me. One that I'm going to be using later today that's made from a tar that comes up out of the earth that actually smells like asphalt, the pigment. It's really dense. And I use all the cadmiums and things like that. But what's really cool about pigment, pigment hunting these days is that there are some amazing earth colors that come from all over the world. I used to be more limited to, you know, the traditional ochres and siennas and things like that. But now there are these fantastic colors coming from Cyprus and from the Rocky Mountains and all kinds of places. Wow. These are some tiny little collages that sometimes get painted on, sometimes get blown up into larger things, sometimes don't.

Working with sound waves, yeah? Yep. Yes. Okay.

One of the things I visualize. Here's a plan for a virtual reality piece. That stacks. Where I kind of think in terms of these layers of realities. Feedback recursivity on autopoiesis diagram.

Very, very, very appropriate for this day and age.

This is some of the stuff that runs through my mind. I think that's the end of this one. Yeah.

Okay. Is, is there, is, is that primary your, your main reel? That's, that's really fascinating.

This is a really, this is a quick one of some, okay.

This is only two minutes, three minutes. Sure. Yep.

Sorry about that. Let's see.

Yeah, that's fine.

This is our layers and layers and layers of pigments. And then I have a bunch of layers of pigments. And then I have a bunch of layers of pigments. And then I have a bunch of layers of pigments. And then I have a bunch of layers of pigments. And then I use a laser to etch patterns and images into them. Using some of the kinds of scientific diagrams that I find that I really enjoy playing with those pieces.

Gregory Little

They're almost, they become like language. And all of these started like this started as a frame from the, you know, animation from the eight channel video. That one. And then I print out the frame and then began working from it. That's exactly the same configuration as the copper colored painting with the turquoise. Yeah. Laser etching into layers of pigment.

That's really interesting. Yeah. What, one thing that's interesting here, you're talking about language, but the thing is, is that it seems like you're going between that, which has a representation and, you know, the, the, a SEMIC. What? SEMIC. In other words, you know, the lacking semantics. Yes, exactly. You know, so. Nice word.

I didn't know that word.

Yeah. It's a Jim Leftwich coined it in the late nineties. Okay. And, and that's actually something I use in my calligraphy work. Okay. You know.

These are actually working with cold wax and pigment.

Those, these are super beautiful. Yeah. So the thing is, so what's, what's going on in the background with this one and what, what's the differences in the process and the foreground, the background on these.

The foreground and the background.

I mean like the, the, the, the gold and then the black, black and white, you know, and they seem like that they're very, very stark.

Yeah. The black and white, you mean like the, like the frames on the center?

No, it was like the, the, the central figure. Yeah. As opposed to like the gold, you know, the gold background that was that you were showing you.

Well, the central figure is basically represents media intervention. It's a stark black and white thing. Yeah. That as I said earlier, kind of leaks into these worlds.

Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure.

One that's based on a Sun Rock song called Others in Their World.

Hmm.

And this one I'm actually, I have all of these elements are, are actually 3D elements that were created in Maya and other places. That's a block of birds there. And so this one is in process and becoming a, an AR piece where. Okay yeah the color grid on the wall and then those images will pop out or are popping out ar so you can see how it goes painting to ar and back and forth

Yeah that's the thing I mean it's you think like the next do you think the next step is maybe going to be like with the you know the proposed apple glasses things like what's what do you think is going to be happening with you? With all this?

Oh, wow. I think it will. What's the future, Greg? Yeah. Right. I know. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the Apple glasses are interesting. I think they're like, they're a bit like the magic leap in terms of how I understand them because. Yeah. They are, you know, they're, they're ergonomically and prescription puts prescripted for a single individual.

Gregory Little

You'll have like, like with the magic leap, you know, you would have your own magic leap headset, which doesn't exist anymore, but, but I think the Apple glasses will be the same kind of thing. I think it's just gonna, just gonna to kind of disappear into us and become completely acceptable and I think to some degree I sometimes feel like we're sort of throwing the baby out with the bath water a little bit I love that phrase but I think that it often seems to me that we're we especially in the in the vr ar thing where things are becoming the platforms are becoming specific to you know portable phones and personal devices I think we're losing some of the questions and notions of presence and changing presence and occupying different presences that were so valuable, I think, in large scale.

Gregory Little

So fascinating and now it's becoming I don't know the internalization of the media I guess it's disappointing to me but that's always been where it's kind of inevitable I suppose at the same time but I do look for those places where that's not happening as much where the where the commercialization and the sales and the commodification haven't quite taken over I like your interventions that you sometimes talk about with that sort of thing the shoes that you did

The nike shoes that you did oh yeah the one the one set for either yeah the one that was that had our bite chin which was kind of like child child worker but with the with the german flag colors then the iraqi flag cover yeah

Yeah that kind of

Bush yeah

Those sorts of interventions I think are totally necessary for me though I'm you know making worlds like this making artwork like this is about kind of offering a an alternative reality and I don't see that I mean kind of a way not I don't want to say escape but an alternative reality I don't see that happening so much with what we're working on what people are working on now with the apple glasses and things like that you know just seems to be more of the same

In other words what is it in what mccluhan was talking about hot hot and bold media in other words you get you're getting towards like a hotter media which basically kind of takes away interpretation yeah and so what happens is that as the as the experiences that we have these virtual spaces become more defined and the resolution gets higher in other words basically takes your do you think that it takes away part of our interpretation completely

Right I mean it's not to be about interpretation.

It's about to be representation rather than interpretation.

Yeah. Yeah. Or, or just presentation.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Here you are. Here's your, here's your experience. Yeah, exactly. Enjoy.

Exactly. I think, I think the re part is even beginning to disappear.

That's an, that's an interesting notion. Then that, then what, then what happens does the, the virtual space and the, you know, the, the space we've been used to does, do they merge then when that, when that happens? Well, they are merging.

Yes. And the goal is to make that as seamless a merger as possible. I, you know, I just keep thinking back on back to Dada, you know, where, where the, the, the merger was not seamless. The merger was abrupt and torn and chopped and scaled. And, you know, that, that Dada aesthetic I think would be, well, it's not going to sell any. But I, I, I, I support seeing more of it. Let's put it that way.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Seamless.

I mean, the, one of the reasons I think surrealism was so able to, be absorbed into, into design and sales and advertising is because of the seamless quality and same quality is what we're seeing in, in AR, especially AR interventions. Sure. Yeah.

Yeah.

I like, I like things that are more disruptive.

There we go. We don't want to get too complacent and want to don't want to get too used to things. Do we?

Well, no, no.

Well, some things, but not in the artwork. All right. So let's hear before we wrap up, is there, is there anything else that you want to throw in the mix?

Oh, well, I throw this little guy in. This is a, this is a little, this is a little fun thing I'm having a good time with. I'll just say that. I don't

Know if you guys are familiar with this. This is a little loop animation. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. This is, this is in process.

Just a little looping animation. Careful.

That's almost an

NFT. It is.

Well, I think I, you know, I like that. I like the platforms. I become really curious about making tiny little things that are short, that loop that, that are so digital, you know, they're totally digital. You don't have to have a $5 billion machine to make them run. And you know, all the high end high risk stuff that I've been interested in before.

Gregory Little

It just makes me happy. So I thought, yeah.

And we've got, we've got a, we've got kind of a, a conversation going on now about the, you know, the concreteness of the, the concreteness of the digital object now with the, with tying it to the blockchain, that sort of thing. And, and, and that's, and that's the sort of grounding. I don't think we've had, you know, we've, we've, we've had until recently.

It's funny to think of the blockchain as grounding, but I know what you mean.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or at least, or at least, or at least making a trustless Providence, you know, highly, highly quantified. Yeah. Yeah. In other words, is that, you know, something, something that, something that, you know, you haven't been able to get your head and get your hands around, but this is a way to kind of digitally, we can get our hands around the digital art object. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You know, which is interesting. Yeah.

And then, you know, it's, this is a much longer conversation, but you know, this is this, this kind of speaks to what I'm thinking about, like Benjamin's idea of the you know, the art in the age of reproduction, but the mechanical reproduction, but this is the art in the age of like post mechanical, you know, this is like, you know, the, the idea of, of, you know, what, what is the art of reproduction? You know, and then what, what happens to the idea of the presence of the work when you're able then to tie it to something more or less concrete, you know, like, like cryptocurrency.

Patrick Lichty

Mm-hmm. You know, anyway. Right. These are, these are, these are strange and interesting things.

They are. You can, you'll sell the, sell your aura as an NFT.

Yeah, maybe. We'll see. Yeah, exactly. Well, I'll tell you what, this has been a really fascinating period of time. It's probably close to an hour. And I want to thank you for joining us. And this has been really, really fantastic. So,

Well, I'm really, I'm very excited about what you, what, what you all are doing with this expression thing. It's, it's a very different kind of thing.

And I'm really sure that you're all now in the same place. And I'm really, I'm really sure that you're all in the same place. I'm really, I'm really, I'm really, I'm really, this is the way to is a way to reconnect with that with that which makes us human maybe in the good sense yeah

Yeah

All right all right thanks so much okay and that's fantastic so thank you thanks for spending some time with me patrick absolutely good to see you