Salon 80 // March 7, 2024

Hello, and welcome to the eightieth Techspressionism partis salon. I'm Renati Anyushka, and I'm coming to you today from the village of Lion's head. In Ontario, Canada. Our topic to day is money. Our first presenting artist is Susan Detroy. Susan is a mixed media artist who lives and practices in Eugene Oregon. And so, Susan. Over to you.

Hi! Yes, I'm in Oregon, in the United States northwest part of United States, and I created a keynote. And I. So I'm gonna share my screen and attempt to do that.

So.

Unattributed

Okay.

Are you seeing my screen? It says, artist money?

Oh, and anyone. That is not Susan. If you could please mute yourself, that'd be appreciated.

Okay. So I created a keynote and I'm going to start that when I started when I'm gonna also time myself. When I started thinking about artists who I am as artists and money. I came up with this idea. And which is, I wanted to share with you all the ways

That I have supported myself as an artist

Over the years and my presentation will be about 10 min. And I'm gonna go through those. And what I did is I sat down and I started a list. And Unbelievably these. To me this seems like a lot. I came up with these, this list Of Jobs or ways that I created income over the years of being an artist. In the beginning, so to speak, of my career. I had jobs reg regular jobs for a number of years during the day day jobs. Most of them were part time. Occasionally there was a full time job, but at the same time I was doing side jobs to, and my artwork. And these are all of the jobs that I've done over my lifetime career as an artist.

Susan Detroy

Once I decided to stop doing almost full time. Work jobs. I made the decision like about in the nineties that I wasn't artists. I decided I was an artist in the early nineties. I was no longer going to do

A job that wasn't related to art. So

In the beginning of my art career I was a photographer. And I worked for bands. I did professional photography for friends of mine and people that were referred to me. I did tonnes of portrait photography. I did weddings a little bit. I found them very difficult. And I had this is a picture of a woman named Laurie Mcclain, who hired me a lot. She was a financial manager I also did contracted work, and this is where my photography so got reinforced. I was doing projects for the local transit district called Lane Transit District.

And these are some of the pieces that I did for their transit guide.

Not I did some kind of interpretive work, and they used it.

Which I was happy about a also, when, in the beginning of my career. I was

Doing installations at community colleges in Eugene and other small at Corvallis, which is where Oregon State University, and also in Salem, Oregon. There were some projects there. Yeah. One of the 2 2 of the places that I've worked of that I worked for a long time was the 2 of them work. One was called the Jacobs Gallery, was a pretty well known in Lane County, Oregon, well known Gallery. I was the manager and exhibit designer. And I got started in that work because, I had been a photographer. And I was analog photographer and digital started happening. And I was at the time totally angry and didn't want to have anything to do with digital. So I and I'd had cancer. And when I came back from cancer treatment. Digital had taken all the photography. So I started volunteering at the Jacobs Gary, and that turned into a very long term job. And I also worked At the same time at the Prn galleries. For Peace Health, which is a medical huge medical organization.

Susan Detroy

I also did teaching

I've done that on and off my whole career

Primarily with my digital camera work and but also teaching. More recently, art paper usage and also transfers. I was teaching transfer work. One of the galleries I worked for. That was probably one of the ones that was one was the one that I liked the most was the David Joyce Gallery at Lank Community College. I worked there about 7 or 8 years, and, as I mentioned, these were not full time jobs. They were they were on a cycle, because when the when a show would come up, I prepare and do the call, and I worked there for a number of years. David Joyce was a beloved instructor, and he passed away, and this gallery was named for him.

Susan Detroy

He was someone that I knew personally and had taken classes from. And I liked that job quite a bit. And the gallery eventually was no longer happened, no longer was funded. So it stopped. I also did specialty medical projects where I helped create this wall at the Neil intensive care unit in at Peace health in Springfield, Oregon. This was also a very much loved job. I worked with a number of parents. And we created all these pictures of children that have been in the Nicu, and we're now, of course, thriving.

Susan Detroy

I briefly worked at Copmarker in Eugene as the trade show manager. This was a very interesting job, and I'm not gonna go into it. But it was bumpy. It was a bumpy organization, and eventually I was let go. But I'm not gonna go into all that, but I will gladly talk about it when I'm not doing this whole this presentation for a number of years up until right before Covid, I worked for Dave Imas, who was who is incredibly talented. Cartographer he makes by it, makes these beautiful maps.

Susan Detroy

And we worked together for several years. I've always done art sales. The pieces. The piece in the middle is from my early series called Mythic Animals. The piece on the right is from my series called Worship of Precious, and it's a piece of cactus work, and transfers the piece in the middle is from the period when I was had survived cancer treatment and these pieces came to me in a sort of a dream state. And then the piece on the left is those pieces on the left from my portrait of a woman project. And that's a metal print that person. This person is purchasing.

Susan Detroy

And I wanted to. Just I attribute to the people in my life who have bought Art for me a lot and support in my art career. These, the people the women in here have bought for me multiple times, and I certainly appreciate them. And mostly yes, that's those are all from the series that I started creating before Covid. Of course. Many of you have done annual holiday sales. I did studio sales. I did fundraiser sales. I was part of a holiday art show at the Whitaker printmakers for many years. And this that, of course, was before Covid, and all of that stopped and I have a converted Garage, from which I did open house and annual sales and that was The picture on the bottom left is when I was doing the mythic animal pieces and I had a sail there.

Susan Detroy

Okay. Always I've been creating art parts and almost all the series I've ever created. I've made art cards. The ones that are in the background are the cards that I'm creating now that I sell at a local shop not a few blocks from me. And whenever I show that work I also have cards available, I currently have a piece that's showing on a group show, and I have cards. The cars have been one of the more popular ways that, people have access my art. And I also use those on a page on page. People can order those A few years. In 2019 I created a book.

Susan Detroy

A couple of books. I had a request from a counselor to create a book for her sort of self-image counseling. Clients! And that book is still available. Yes, I did nft sorwhel with the roses. I'm not doing that now, but that work helped me create other work. Digital work and films. Oh, and I think. Mostly right. Starting during Covid, I've done films. And I was commissioned to do a film a 40 day documentary film. And I also won an award, have won awards for my picking films monitor some money. Yes.

Susan Detroy

And the last slide is of Collaged composite pieces that I've made over the years. Since starting digital work. Primarily, those are pieces that individuals want to do that have to do with people that are either passed away for our aging and our

Expected to die

Except for the pet. But I did a number of those, and the piece that you see on the right. Some of you will recognize Cynthia Beth Rubin actually helps me. Get some high resolution piece, and that I just finished yesterday for one of the people that was for one of the supporters, and she's totally Loves it. And so we're gonna look at that. And so that brings us up to now, and I think that's the end of my presentation. Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, Susan.

Sure. Thanks for sharing all that long part journey that you've had. Thank you. Are we doing questions, or are we just gonna go

The way we're gonna go is there are 2 more presenters. And then we'll open it up, and people can.

So thanks

You're welcome. The next presenter is Colin.

Hey? What's up? Thanks, Frenada. And thank you, Susan, for your presentation? So yeah, I mean, this topic wasn't something that I really thought I had anything to share about. But as I was doing this inventory of mine have been pulling out lots of old work and photographing stuff that I hadn't photographed, and I came across a bunch of work from graduate school that actually has money in it. So I thought I'd share that work. And you know, just do a little show and tell. So let me.

Colin Goldberg

Try sharing my screen here.

Colin Goldberg

Okay, can you guys see my screen? Okay. Desktop. Okay? So these pieces are, there's 4 of them. And they're pigment transfers that were done in 2,005. So the pigment transfer is basically a process where you print onto a transparency film with an ink jet, and then use a specialized primer that this particular primer it was sort of mixed with rubbing alcohol or isopropyl alcohol, and then applied to wood panels, and then the transparency film is sort of rolled down across the substrate and burnished, you know, to work out any air bubbles, and then when you peel the transparency film off.

Colin Goldberg

It actually transfers the pigment pigment from the film to the substrate, so it essentially will transfer the pigment directly onto. You know a surface that you couldn't ordinarily run through a printer like piece of plywood, for instance. So these pieces were done as part of a mixed media, digital mixed media class that I audited. It was actually an undergraduate class that I sat in on and it was actually a really great class, because I learned a lot of different techniques. Around digital mixed media. And there are a couple of books on Amazon. Like, if you search digital mixed media, there are 2 female artists, bonnie Lotke, Lotka is one of them. It's LHOT. KEI think, is our last name. There's another artist, too, that also. You know, another female artist. I think they might have co-authored a couple of books on the subject, but they went through a few different you know, techniques in the book, and then we learn them in the class one of the vendors that I've used, and I think this was the company that made this film, and primer is called Das das ss, which is like digital art supply something or other. And I remember the primer is called super sauce, which is kinda like it looks like almost like a jess. So I think I actually have a jar of it kicking around somewhere.

Colin Goldberg

No, no, maybe that's something else. But yeah, there's another company called Ink Aid, that I believe they make similar similar products, and they make a primer that I use quite a bit to print to run inkjet prints on different surfaces. So anyway, that's a little bit about the process. The photographs were taken with a palm trio which was sort of a pre iPhone smartphone look like a palm pilot, a little keyboard on it, and you know, being the sort of nerd that I am. As soon as there was a phone with a keyboard I was all over it, and there was even a little modem that you could plug into it. So you could access A very small amount of content. I think it was really, actually just email at that point. This is. Geez! Must've been 1990, 7 or 8 that smartphone came out and then that was before the sort of iPhone form factor of, you know, a flat screen with no keyboards or buttons on it, so the photos are very low resolution.

Colin Goldberg

They were taken inside of a supermarket. I believe it was called Kroger, which is in the Midwest. I went to Rad school in Ohio, and there were 2 of them actually in Bowling Green, Ohio, where I went and actually met Patrick Lichty in that program. There were both Mfa computer art students at that school, and there was a Kroger. And then there was a Meyer that was me, IJER. And those were the 2 supermarkets, neither one of which I have. They're here on the east coast. I'm zooming in from Vermont on the in the northeast part of the country of the us.

Colin Goldberg

So yeah, these pictures were taken in the supermarket. I'm not exactly sure why I took them. You know. I wasn't consciously trying to make any work about commerce or consumerism, but the supermarkets were just like Giant and actually, you know what I think these were taken in a super, Walmart. Now that I'm actually looking at the pictures. Because so this one here is called let me just see, these titles are. Jeez meet 2, 25. So I guess it was 225 a pound, and then there's a bar code in here, and there's resin on top of the piece, and I poured the resin over these?

Colin Goldberg

I think they're quarters. Or are they their nickels? Yeah. So I mounted those. I glued them onto the wood, and then I poured resin over the top of it. This one is another one that was yeah, almost positive. This is in like a super, Walmart, because there was food and clothing in there. This one's called Andy would approve in reference to Andy Warhol. Who is sort of very interested in the idea of consumerism as a topic. And you know I just. I had never been in a super Walmart before I went out to Ohio, and it was just really kind of wild to be in a store where there was Clothing, and meet in the same store, you know, along with pretty much everything else that you could imagine. So that's kind of what drove me to. Create these pieces. This one is called Leave Yeah, 80 cents and couple so there's 80 cents in this couple walking down the aisle getting their groceries. And this one, I think, is called dairy aisle and you could see like in these pictures. There's some artifacts of where I peeled the film off, and it like ripped the pigment off different spots. And you know, honestly, I didn't mind that. I think you know a lot of times. It's kinda like that whole Wabisabi thing where you know the imperfections are part of the art, and that is what helps make it something other than a straight photograph. And I kinda like that. So those are the 4 pieces that I wanted to show, and I'll actually, I'll show them really quickly.

Colin Goldberg

In real life, quote unquote, because I pulled them out so you could sort of see what they actually looked like. So this one is the 80 cents in couple, and you can kind of see there's a very high gloss finish on it, and what I did was I put a wood mounting block on the back. So when it's hung, you know, it's sort of Projects off the wall like an inch or so, and I kind of like that. You know that type of presentation this is there's 2 more that I have the meet. 2, 25. I don't know what happened to that piece, but this is the Andy would approve one.

Colin Goldberg

And then this is the Dairy isle. So yeah, it's what I wanted to show. And that's pretty much it, you know, is gonna show some screen sharing of. I see there's one thing II did want to show. So let me just see on the screen share. Yeah. So you know, I just pulled up a few of Warhol's money related works. These ones, you know. I'm not really feeling too much, but the ones that are actually the dollar bills I thought, just they're very interesting. Just the whole idea of the you know, and about as anti aesthetic as you can get, I think, which is what makes his work kind of interesting, you know. The car crashes and the electric chairs, I mean, some of those pieces in person are very powerful. You know. And I they're difficult to appreciate seeing them in reproduction.

Colin Goldberg

So yeah, that's all from me

Meet at 2 25 a pound. That's something something notable. Thank you very much, Colin. Yeah. Now, I'd like to introduce 2 or one speaker from Mona Maudna is the museum of wild and newfangled art. And some of you may have already met Carrie-ann and Joey at the last salon. But one of their mandates of the Museum is that artists should be paid and paid well. So with that little introduction, I'm going to ask either Joey or Carrie Anne to speak. Please

Thank you so much, Renata, I'll start and give a brief chat, and then Joey will follow up and thank you, Renata and Colin, for inviting us here. So I'm in New York City and on the homeland of the Lenapi ho, King. And going to share my screen.

cari ann shim sham

Maybe not. I have a new computer. So it's a an Nyu computer. And it's not letting me share my screen. So I'm just gonna talk to you. I'm coming at this from the experience of an artist who's worked freelance for 20 years. And before landing a job in Academia at Nyu to balance out my finances. And this whole experience led me to question the art world in general. Why is the artist paying for everything? Why is the art world not sustainable? Why artists buying into the star economy on Instagram. And other social media platforms. And giving their art away only to be manipulated by algorithms advertisement.

cari ann shim sham

And have their data farmed. The poaching of the artist has long been going on. So we created mowna (The Museum of Wild and Newfangled Art). When we created it. It was our mission to pay artists and to create an ethical business model and platform we are committed to free calls for submissions. So we don't charge artists to submit their work to us. We sell work for the artist, we give 70 30 splits where the artist gets 70% versus the 50 50 of the normal traditional gallery setting. We use nfts as a vehicle for payment, and we see art as digital currency with the rise of cryptocurrencies and the decentralization of money.

cari ann shim sham

To layer art on top of the blockchain is revolutionary. Artists and the art market are seeing a huge transformation. The ability to sell one's art online world wide to a market of artists, art collectors, and investors from the comfort of one's couch is radical. To do so with royalties that are paid on every resale of the token is exponential. We see this as the financial future for artists. And as a way of also conservation archival and a comfortable live ability for artists.

cari ann shim sham

Not only can you invest in artists in their artwork and own works by traditional artists that you may never have been able to afford prior to the blockchain. Such as Lorna Mills and Marina abroad. Artists are now making tokens that one can purchase so that you can invest directly into the artist, and not even The production of artwork is involved. You're literally giving the artists money for their token as an indication that you support them and their lifestyle and their career choice Of being an artist. So I'm gonna hand it over to Joey, who will be able to share his screen and show some of the work we've been doing.

cari ann shim sham

Thank you.

Thanks, Karen. So that's kind of some of what the museum does. And I'm just kind of gonna go through some of the things that we've noticed over the last handful of months and years. How different individuals as well as organizations, are sort of approaching you know, creating money and such from their work, and so on. So sort of the most common one for the artists is mint the artwork as the nft. And you can sell it. That sort of brought in a lot of people who were interested in short term gains. So a lot of people buying the mft and then realisting it higher and sort of seeing immediate sales there. Another approach that the museum takes is sort of a longer term listing. So we'll buy work, and we believe in the long term of the art space of the kind of blockchains as well as the artist. So we'll list works, but they're quite substantially higher. 100 times 1,000 times the price of what we purchased part of it. The work we see is just too cheap.

joey zaza

And the other is we see it. Just having a lot more value. If an artist is pouring their entire career into something or months to create work, and they're selling it for a few dollars. That doesn't necessarily make sense. So there's some opportunity in there. Either short term or long term reselling of work. Another way to kind of make money is to build your own platforms. So there's all these different technologies that generative art got really popular with art blocks and fx hash both of those platforms are have made a like reasonable amount of money through sales by taking a percentage. So you can kind of create your own organizations, websites and platforms and market those and so get investment for those from Vc. Or angel investors and go on and sell those. Another thing is collecting so kind of in that traditional space. There are people who collect art. Some of it's to support the artists. Some of it's because they enjoy it. We're not here to talk about any of that. We're here to talk about money, so collecting can bring you money, but it can also waste you a lot as well. Another thing. That's a way to make money in the space is curation. So if you're a curator, you can come in and filter through all the different millions of digital artworks that are available. You can throw exhibitions, you can rent space, promote it. Cell works as part of it one platform that we curated for was object one, and it's Obj, KTON E. And they have open call for curators. So if you get a list of artists together, and you're able to provide the artwork to the platform. They're willing to kind of give you A marketing opportunity to sell some of your work. Most

Of kind of pricing. And

Who makes how much and what do you price things at? And how do you be successful? How do you sell? How do you try to avoid not selling is kind of based on some of what you see in like traditional art market or traditional business at all. So marketing is a big one, if you're already established. That's going to help out. And so on. So, like all the traditional sort of ways you make money in other industries apply. There's no kind of like secret place you can go to, just, you know, make tons of money, and so on. You have to be thoughtful and maybe have a business plan, or some kind of Strategies, and so on, and try to execute them. Another thing, too, is the space can be risky. So some of those art tokens that Carrie Ann was talking about we bought really small amount as the museum, just to show support for the concept and for the artist.

joey zaza

And in just 5 weeks, some of them I just checked. They're down 75% and others are up 55%, and then kind of others have stayed the same. So there's a lot of volatility which, if you're an investor. I personally like because. That's opportunity to make or lose a lot which can be interesting to different people. Another approach, instead of just artworks, or these tokens is to write. So there's a platform called Fx Hash, that has articles. People have been writing kind of interesting articles related to mostly generative art or artificial intelligence. And they'll sell, and they'll put a price on an article so prior. It was a little bit hard to kind of sell your articles, and it's still hard. You need to like market it, and so on. But some of those have sold on the secondary market for maybe 100 or $200.

joey zaza

Which is cool. It's great to see writing be appreciated in that way. It doesn't mean that you're going to just kind of write articles and sell it for that much you need to market it and have interesting content. But people are working through. How do you build new publishing ways in Web 3, so that can be books. So Tashin put out a book on nfts which created a big buzz. They were working that for about 2 years. It's a hardcover book. It's 850, I think, for a copy. And then there's certain artist versions that are $4,000 per book. So that's kind of how a larger publisher is sort of approaching the space individuals are creating Zines or creating Pdfs and just kind of selling them on a variety of different platforms. And there's just platforms that need to be built.

joey zaza

So if anyone has a passion for publishing or whatever there's like big opportunities. In most of sort of the industries. Other things people are doing are working with the physical. So how do you kind of maybe sell a digital version. And do you sell a physical work? Along with that? We brought a work the other day from an artist called Huw Messie, who works with stitch, like automated stitching, and then combining those Stitches into like a video. And that artist is sending along one of these like automated stitched frames from that animation to collectors of that work.

joey zaza

There was another artist, Anna Lucia and Phoebe Hess, that combined for creating a scarf. So you go onto the platform. You feed in audio content. It converts that audio content into a graphical design that's output onto a scarf. So you're creating individual kind of generative fashion. So fashion is, and physical's are kind of an interesting area to explore. There's also the concept of like prams and how? Who is kind of the Creator. So the artist can maybe create code that creates imagery, and then the collector can go in and tweak that to get an output that they're interested in. So if you're looking at, something's gonna hang on your wall, and you really want to get in there and like dial it into just what you're looking for, those kinds of concepts of artists and collector coming together to create work. And how that kind of plays back and forth.

joey zaza

I guess if you look at the art world, you kind of look at the sort of traditional way in which work was sold. Prior. So with the digital. You don't have to worry about shipping or insurance. There's less of an environmental concern. Provenance, too, is like very important. All of the work on the blockchains are traceable. I think there's kind of a quote that says 40 to 50% of art on the traditional market is forgeries. So obviously there are different markets totally, but those are some of the concerns for the advantages that, like a digital product has.

joey zaza

And there's a lot of partnerships and branding big organizations are coming in. Even Walmart was mentioned earlier. They have their own kind of entities that they're working on. So everyone's been trying this for a handful of years. And yeah, just kind of end with one interesting sort of used case. There's the vending machine project that happened a couple of years ago in New York City. So there was a physical vending machine, and it had like nfts in it. And you put in a few dollars and get this like nft out of the thing. And then you go online and claim it.

joey zaza

That's kind of morphed over to a digital version. So there's a website vending nfts and you go and you just kind of get a random nft and different artists come in and collaborate. They provide different works for the machine. And collectors come in and get like an interesting artwork from an artist. So there's a lot of different ideas that are coming out, and I just sort of wanted to throw a bunch of them in terms of how people are approaching this and trying to generate revenue, and so on.

joey zaza

So thank you for the time, and hope everyone's making money and not losing it, I suppose.

Thank you very much. Both to Carrie, Anne and Jody. And just so you remember the Mount now, website was dropped into the chat by Carrie Anne, and they currently have an exhibition on right now called exit plan. You can access all of their shows through the portal on their website. An artist who's made a different kind of token is Jan Swinburne. Jen lives in Toronto, Canada, and She's done a project that she calls part of an artist multiple series. So I'm gonna hand it over to Jen. She's gonna talk about that now. Thank you.

Renata Janiszewska

Jenna, are you okay? There? Are you frozen? You're or you're muted. Sometimes Jan has Wi-fi issues. So we'll just maybe just wait 30 s or so. And.

Renata Janiszewska

Yeah, there she is. You're muted. Jen.

Yeah, I have a presentation. I'll see if I can screen share. Desktop. Okay? And we'll go here. Second Oops. Okay, you got that? Yes. Okay. Great. Yeah. So as part Of the thinking about money and nfts and whatnot. I was inspired to create an artist. Multiple that I refer to as a pocket sculpture. Which is in the end a token. But for those of you who don't know my work, I'll just run quickly through. I create these relief sculptures based on my voice saying a word.

Jan Swinburne

And these 2 particular sculptures are they're the word time. And my next step in the process is to Film those. So I have a digital arts project. And let's see if there's no audio on this. And I exhibit these. And speaking of money so far, I generally try to apply to places that are submit to places that do pay artist fees. In Canada we have a system called Carfac, which is our artist union, and our artists run centers and other organizations usually pay fees for exhibiting.

Jan Swinburne

And then so moving on, I got these nickel plated coins made From. I'll give you the base design here. And the concept of money is part of this. They taught it's time is time. Was a I fry. Well, a quote from James. Yeah. James Joyce and Tommy's time was and is no more, I believe, is the full quote. So my work deals with sound, and I looked at those concepts. And then I actually produced these one coin. This is the 2 sides of the coin. And I just gonna show you some pictures, cause I don't want to go in too many things.

Jan Swinburne

Details here. I'll show you this book at the end. It's called Money Value art, and it's all sorts of different essays by artists on that topic, including myself. I did one on accessibility and from a disability perspective. But a disability perspective is actually a broader perspective with the universal access for most people. So here we have the packaging and the coin, and this card, and then basically a create, a poetic piece that touches on some of the themes that are contained within the coin and show you a couple more things. Okay? So the artists multiple for this talk. I wanted to talk about some of the themes around. Money on this art is currency is something we've just been talking about, and we've seen all the physical and different forms where it's currency and how we think about currency. I mean, there's money, money, and hard facts of trying to make a living and survive. But there's also cultural currency.

Jan Swinburne

An exchange of values and ideas. And I don't know, like we tend to separate the 2. And making this project sort of started looking at it. And I know other artists have done this. They've made an entire career on. I believe it was bonds that were created, and this person was selling and trading bonds. So even when you comment on it, it can become something else. So it's just an interesting thing, my other interest in this. It was the idea of Distribution. And so far I'm selling these for $25 Us. To people outside of Canada, and so far they've found their way to various spots in Canada, North America. And I just really like that idea that it's a small thing that can. Actually, it's financially.

Jan Swinburne

Fairly accessible to, you know, a lot of people, but obviously not everyone and it's actually gonna be distributed around. And I really like that as a multiple. The idea of multiples. And then there's you know, the history of coins and legacy. And I have this sort of fantasy of, you know, like I pass away, and somebody finds my coin cash, you know, if they're still around like 100 years from now, and they dig it up. And you know, I've also got some that were they're malformed. And they're not very good. And I'm thinking I'm just gonna go and drop them in places around the city. Eventually, after I've sold enough Of these particular things, I decided to do an open edition. Again, sort of bucking against the trend of Preciousness and value that happens in The market for this project. Obviously, other things out of practical reasons. You definitely want.

Jan Swinburne

You know, closed edition. But you know this also makes me think of my little felt postcard. That was Joseph Boyce, right? Multiple. And I love that thing, you know. It's just such a nice. I feel like I have a little piece Of Joseph Boyce so that I could never, you know, afford, or anything else so, and accessibility, too, is like. You know, there's the financial accessibility. But there's also, you know, the physical object, and someone who, with low vision, you know, it's something they can hold. And those are things I try to consider in my artwork.

Jan Swinburne

You know. On a basis more regularly now than I used to. So that's kind of what I've been up to with this. And if you want to read the Little explanation home thing that goes with this. The content for me is very important with the messaging and the ideas of getting people to think about money, and how we think about money is, you know, tied to, you know. Time and wasting time, or you know. And money money talks. That was the other thing that's a big piece of this work is the idea of voice and voicelessness, and that anyone who has more money has more power and more voice. So it also touches on that theme as well, and our particular system, as well as you know.

Jan Swinburne

Just musical forms that aren't heard. So I think that's it for me, and I hope you all enjoyed it thanks so much jen, II have to say that I'm really happy. We have 2 of yours

In our family, and I'm just wondering

How do people get in touch with you if they would like to purchase one of your tokens. Sure you can get to. I'll put it in the chat, my website through my website or social media. Let me just see. Let me cut and paste them, and I'll put them there for you. It's gonna take me a minute. So if people wanna

Sure sure and I just want to say that they cover really quickly. I got mine so soon after to you.

To you. It's about 10 days to the States. I found out. Okay, and you do. You do shipping internationally to Europe and Asia? Yes, yes.

And, Jan, when you paste it in, if you could just chime in and say. The URL that way. People who are watching recording on YouTube could also, you know, access it.

Alright. Let me just get my course I can't find it now

While we wait a few minutes for Jen. I'm going to introduce the next Speaker, which is, who is Roz? And Ross has given a talk recently which is going to share some news about before we get to Ross. How's it going there, Jane, with your site.

It's gonna take me a minute. Sorry, guys, my tremors acting up. I'll tell you what. It's Jan Swinburne for these closed caption. And I will put it in the chat as soon as I can. And there's an E at the end of your name at the end of okay.

And Janice, JAN.

Yes.

Great. Okay, thank you very much for that presentation. Jen. Thank you. Rose. You are the speaker.

Hi, everybody thank you. All of you. That's been really interesting. And yeah, I think I may have to get some of that money. Okay, so I, recently, I didn't really prepare this for this. So I'm just gonna kind of rush through this. But II recently did a presentation to Gail Levin's class at Baruch and it was to her art marketing class. It was all about art and money, which is something that has been like a large part of my work and my thoughts. So I'm gonna go. Just try to share my screen. Here. I have the Powerpoint open. Can you see the Powerpoint?

Yep.

Okay, good. I guess.

Okay, good. So I'll just play from start. So what is money but value? I give you this in exchange for that I'm kind of going pretty fast through this like a banana, you know. It's so easy to sell a banana, because you know the supply and demand, depending on how many bananas are needed in the world. Scarcity this kind of thing. And you know, as an artist looking out this is early days. Me looking at a painting. It's like, you know, where does that fit in with being an artist?

Roz Dimon

It's hard to put a value on art. This is an early piece. 83. I love you me, too. Kind of media coming in all the way. I'm a painter, and still I'm a painter working in digital media now. One of my earliest paintings in Atlanta, Georgia. III was always interested in money, and I worked in temp jobs. And just I was fascinated by I don't know just the whole milieu of it. And so and the ironies, and I did this painting. This is just a small prop of it, but this is an oil painting about 50 inches wide, and she's I took a dollar and tore it up in her face, and I stood in it, and I put pennies, and it's really it's called the dollar Bill. Early piece Talent is great, but it's not enough. Here's some early paintings of mine. These are really large, like 60 by 30. Just I'm talking to these students. So I'm using this today just to it was a kind of longer talk, but hard to our city. These are all oil on canvas.

Roz Dimon

And media was getting in there. Tilly, the teller, was a credit card at the time, and it's right in the heart there. Lot of urban urban is always been a big influence. Saxophone player going kind of fast. Everything has a price. You know. Volkswagen to New York city had to be there got in. The bug came up to New York City, and almost immediately things were getting you know, more electronic money. I don't know. I'm getting off of the money topic a little bit, but it was always there, I mean, for one thing, how do I immediately got a job at work. I'm in the pan am building, you know, because II I've always I never like to put too much pressure on my work to have to be commodity. And yet we all go about that in a different way. So you know, when people say, Oh, if you, Major, living as an artist.

Roz Dimon

I would say, yes, I mean, especially after I got into digital but anyway, first solo show, I love to talk to young artists and kind of encourage them, cause you know, they see these movies in New York about, you know, young actors and artists. And they're like in this penthouse looking out over all of New York City, and this is the reality of it. This is my first apartment that was advertised as a garden apartment. This has something to do with money, and this was the garden right here. I just took a picture that looked a lot like my apartment.

Roz Dimon

Early in my apartment, which I could take a bath and do my paintings, and call my mother, and sleep and cook without really moving more than 5 feet. It was in the upper West Side, and I think it's the only tenement apartment at the time. But it was the oil burner was always catching on fire downstairs, and but I was just loving this and working in an apartment, and it is all about money, cause you know, I was working as a temp and coming home at night and on the weekends, and it was exhilarating. And these are all my traffic lights. I was using my these hairdresser tubes from a friend of mine who was a photographer and a hairdresser, and I love these. I want to get the immediacy of the city.

Roz Dimon

Going kind of soon go after every opportunity. I'm talking to young artists who are trying to figure out how to market. There was an advertisement for the first for New York, for artists who did images of New York City, and every single image of mine was all about New York City. So I applied, and my first show was at the in the middle of the city government House here. I'm not thinking of the right name, but the City Courthouse, not the courthouse, but you know where the mayor was and everything. It's a long hallway, and I invited everybody, and I encourage everybody to know what you're doing, you know. Given my card and said, Hey, join me for the show first, 1,033 days in Manhattan. Even this image. It's about money. It's about a guy working in a bank, I mean the drudgery of it all, you know, that's an oil painting on my card.

Roz Dimon

But leading to digital, but still about money. I was still working at places, but going into digital. My paintings are getting more and more about pixels, which I didn't even know what they were. But pixels were invading, and I was still working in offices. Temp always temp, and then going to pearl paint, you know. Never permanent jobs or the permanent jobs will never last, because I had a team. My art. I'm sure all of you can relate to that. Big painting still. Information paintings, 10 years of information paintings going from Atlanta to New York before I People were important. Oh, this was the guy who's my model for my Wall Street voice again. They're squares and it was all about the money with them. And I just found these funny guys like going down to make money. And they all had their little Wall Street journals. And they're like, let's go for it. And I was there like these little monsters. I still have some of these, but it's all quite a few of these, 7 shows off and on Choices.

Roz Dimon

I wanted to paint what I wanted to paint, not the trends. Again. We're leading into digital so early. Digital. I went into digital to the earliest courses at Sva, and I'm leading into money in terms of my own life, and that at a point II wanted to teach, and I love to teach. But it. This is like 19. I started in 1984 digital. And by the time oh, here's my husband 4 colors on an Ibm I was ecstatic. The Monitor the least going fast. How much time do I have? That's why I'm going so fast I don't know. Alright, so I'll just keep going. Things were happening at T. I'm starting to do digital work. And one of the curios of at Ti was telling these young artists they go into any show you can.

Roz Dimon

You know, in the early days, and I had to show New Jersey, and it turned out that the woman who lived around the block, Natalie Barkley Jones, was the curator for 18 t's corporate collection. She saw one of my digital florals that I had output with the gals help, I mean, things were kind of primitive in the early days of digital and she came over and bought 8 pieces for the permanent, their permanent collection. So I was on the cover of Al Gore racing down the information highway. I mean, he really was the information highway. And this was some of you may remember Colin and others. But I'm trying to think of the guy's name who was in charge of this tabloid call electronic directions. And by then I was working at the World Trade Center and leading new media departments, because it was kind of early to II talked proud about going, you know, going into to get my masters, and they said you could teach half the courses for the Masters and I was already working late. Shift down the World Trade Center. I seem to always be working there, which is, of course, the pinnacle of money.

Roz Dimon

And for this particular they asked me to do this cover, and paid me and Al Gore is actually signed this piece, and II have 3 copies of this piece signed but it's all these people pumping in the gym at the World Financial center, which is pretty souped up, I mean, I was working in the heart of money. And whenever and these jobs, when people say, Oh, did you make your money as a professional artist. I say, hell, yeah. I mean, you know, in the Renaissance you didn't have to just be the one who was Michelangelo, but he worked with people on altar pieces, and even for big commissions they were at. Tell ye where people work together, and you know the separation of commercial and fine art, I mean, there certainly can be a difference. The cream rises to top. There are great works that certainly exceed commodity, but II found working within, you know, like Deloitte and the Wall Street Journal and American Express, I found that fascinating, I mean, I never learned about fonts at art school and I was a fine art major, but I found all that fantastic. And I think the digital read on now is, bring all that together.

Roz Dimon

These are digital pieces. Get umbrellas. Here is the epitome of money. I was making a really good salary, Deloi. I led their first new media department. I was enjoying being kind of irreverent within the middle of a big corporation at the World Trade Center. And I came home, and at the night. I was doing pieces like this, and this is called Washington Pig, and it is all about money. I mean, it's the dollar bill, and it's Washington. And right in the middle of his eyes it says, for sale, and you can find a lot of other representatives to money into non. Who am I thinking of?

Roz Dimon

Noam Chomsky, you know. It says, nothing is created equal. The consent to manufacture. There's just a lot of little jokes going on. And what's funny about this is, it's always these rich sort of no, I'm not a Republican. Types who have been collectors of mine who just love this piece. So it's a critique, and it's a celebration of money. We've got estate lotter lipsticks. I'd wanna A an award. A camera was called. That was one of the big ones for something I did with us Estate Lauder, which was all about lipstick, but we made it fun. I didn't tell students to look. If you're working at a hardware store, you know, that's what you gotta do, you know. Arrange the hammers in a way that's interesting. Yeah, you can bring art to anything. But things were happening bigger shows.

Roz Dimon

Digital, you know, supporting the Guggenheim. And this was an early show pretty crowded. Yes. Oh, my way over. Okay, I gotta just do that. Yes, I am just getting out of here. All right. Okay, at the end. I do want to say there's nothing better than being able to give a piece away. So there you go. The price of art is measurable. Thank you. I'm sorry I hadn't planned this, and I guess that's obvious. But I appreciate you letting me in here at the last minute. I just didn't have time and I but I know my work is so much about money. But I just wanted to put this in there. Thank you.

It was our pleasure. Thank you. I wanted to get back to something that Carrie Ann said earlier. The question, Why is the art world not sustainable? Or, as Colin would say, the art industry.

Renata Janiszewska

Any thoughts, anyone.

I have a lot of thoughts about it. But I just talked for about 20 min. So maybe somebody else should. Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts about it, too, especially

As well. I hate. They bring us up all the time, but I have to reference it. I'm in my eighth decade. And as a result of that I have seen the art market go up and down several times and noted what caused these fluctuations if we start with Jackson Pollock. That was when I was very young, but the adults that I was surrounded by, questioned whether the crappy. Cheap paint that he used to throw on the canvases was gonna hold up over time. And, in fact, when I was in Australia, Australia bought one of Jackson Pollock's biggest paintings called Blue Poles.

Lee Musgrave

And I asked the curate, and he said, Oh, yeah, come on over. You'll find most of it on the floor. And I said, What are you talking about? He said, well, if you stand in here long enough, you'll hear a slight ping cause little pieces of paint will just pop off the canvas and fall on the floor because it was he used mostly cheap house paint. Now, along with that, acrylics started coming in and in the 50 s. As well, and there was a huge argument about whether acrylics were going to last as long as oil paint does.

Lee Musgrave

And believe it or not. I actually still hear that conversation going on today. There are professors who will tell you don't use it. Go! It paints because they won't hold up as much as oil paint. I've got acrylic paints here in my studio that I've owned since The late fifties. Nothing has changed on at all At all. Then, when the light and space movement came in and the Finnish Fetish movement came in. There was a big explosion with plastics using past resin to make art works with which Emitted fumes. So collectors were a little leery about setting them in their living room or anywhere in the house if it was gonna be putting out these dangerous fumes.

Lee Musgrave

I went through a spell there where I was painting only on plexiglas with spray enamels. And, boy, this does so a lot like hot cakes at incredible prices. And so far, luckily, none of those collectors have ever called me up and said, we, I have a problem with this piece. But a good friend of mine, Peter Alexander, who casted sort of very high pyramid wedges out of resin his pieces, started doing this sort of slowly bending over. If the same problem is going on with fiberglass Corvettes.

Lee Musgrave

The doors of all sagging on now, in the middle of all of that I would meet curators and museum people, and they were scared to death of this stuff because they didn't have departments to deal with this stuff. They didn't know how to store it. They weren't sure whether was gonna hold up or not. And all of this filters down through the collectors. And the collectors start to question things like. Can I buy this neon piece? And what happens when the gas inside the glass Decays.

Lee Musgrave

The piece will change, the colour won't look the same any more. Do I get cheated? How can I resell it? All of this stuff comes up now for a lot of you who, doing Digital printing with archival pigment prints that raises all sorts of questions. Because we don't know the answer to that question. Yet, whether those pigments are going to survive or not? Are they going to decay? Are they going to start eating into the paper, or whatever other surface you put them on.

Lee Musgrave

If you get out and mingle with collectors and are able to have discussions with them. One thing I can say that I found is consistent as the overwhelming majority of the very rich collectors. They don't give a damn. They really don't care whether that stuff's gonna hold up or not, they will buy it now, cause they can enjoy it. Now show it off to the friends now, and later they'll donate it to some museum, and they'll it'll be their job to take care of it.

Lee Musgrave

To come down the scale to wealthy people. But people who are concerned about the legacy they're going to leave by giving this artwork to their family or relatives, or donating it to museum. Those people I have found are very concerned about how stable The material you're using is

Renata. Could you repeat the question, please?

Yes, why is well, I just want to say thank you to Lee for that, and Colin had some comments there in the chat about pigments that we might be able to get back to. But the question for Nita was, why is the art world not sustainable? The art world, the art, industry, the art infrastructure, the

The world that we inhabit? I think the art industry is not sustainable because it is built upon exploitation. The art industry has duplicated and wholly adopted the so called free market structure. Which is a, you know, capitalist construct. You know. I'm all for capitalism. You know. Make money, if you can do so ethically. But unfortunately. Here in the Western world and elsewhere. There's a lot of oppression and exploitation that is built into, baked in and perpetuated by the art world, Africa in particular, and Asia as well have been exploited.

Verneda Lights

They. Antiquity's market has looted and misappropriated artworks. That belong to other cultures. Art has been a part of the spoils of war, as we see with what happened to in Nazi, Germany. The way the. Artwork that belonged to Jews were stolen and hoarded and traded on the Black Market. African masks were used to developed the Cubist movement, and Picasso got all the credit. He! He and his cohorts. So there is a narrative of the Western world in which it's A is based on either or dichotomy.

Verneda Lights

It does not embrace. It's like either The Caucasians win or The Africans in the African diaspora, and the Asians win when in actuality art should belong to the whole world. It should be inclusive. It should be the art of the West and the art of Africa and the art of Asia, and you know the art of the world and of the gain should not be predicated upon the denigration of the culture that the artwork has been Derived from. You know Africa is put down. Put down, put down. Black is awful evil.

Verneda Lights

Poor, wicked and white is good, rich, whatever. And we see that spilling over into politics here in the United States, and it's really unfortunate. But such behaviour is not sustainable. Prolonged inequality and oppression are not sustainable because you cannot sequester Greed. You cannot sequester. Wickedness. You cannot say I'm going to rob from. You know I'm going to rob Africa of its gold and silver and its art. And not have that desire to steal. Then spill over into how you're gonna treat your own people.

Verneda Lights

We see that here in the United States with the way women, you know, even white women, are being abused and mistreated by the law. You know. Where you can't even control what you do with your own body and fertility issues are basically on an auction block in the United States at the behest of the patriarchy. You know all this may sound radical, but it's not. It's a fact of life. It's what's going on. And when these things happen, you know, you start devouring your own people Of that, I suppose you suppose, before you know, even though you're working from an unequal construct, the people who are with you on your scale of inequality when you start abusing them as well.

Verneda Lights

What's going to be left? Do you want the whole world to be at the behest of a handful of people that's not going to work because the numbers just won't match up. We're at a point now here in the West where by year 2030, you know, and this is something the finance years and big banks are very much aware of by the year 2030, which is, you know, scant 6 years from now. You're going to have one out of every 2 workers here in the United States are gonna come from where sub-saharan Africa. Okay, so now, how is cutting off aid to Africa and doing everything that you can to? Make sure that children die young in Africa? And making sure that you create immigration laws that are contrary to their admission to the United States. How is this going to help you in the long run, when in reality. You don't have enough people that you consider these desirable to man the jobs that are going to keep the country going. We need these workers, you know, and all the activity that's going on right now to stop people of color from coming into the United States.

Verneda Lights

Oh, is a sound in fury. Signifying nothing. So sustainability is by definition a system that grows. And ideally, it should grow in a positive direction to create a system that grows in a negative direction that is built on oppression and thievery. You know. Does not grow in a way that benefits the world. And eventually it is those things which benefit the world most that are most long lasting. You know. Fascism. Neo nazism, and all that. Those things did not work. The American Confederacy did not work because it was it was bad government. And it was bad ethics.

Verneda Lights

And it and it was bad business. You know, because business is built on the Invisible Hand. You know the principle of the Invisible Hand. And people who try to stop the Invisible Hand will not succeed, and when I say, the Invisible Hand? It is that part of business which you must do to help other people to love your neighbor as yourself. In order to succeed. I'll give you an example. You might have a Deli owner who is in a Muslim neighborhood. Jewish neighborhood, and the Delhi owner could be a white gentleman who does not like he doesn't care for Muslims, that he doesn't care for Jews or black people. But because he has a Deli in a neighborhood where people have certain culinary and dietary laws.

Verneda Lights

He's going to have to abide by that OK. Dece. The people that he serves will not patronize his Deli. If he does not comply with, say, a kosher rules if he does not handle his meat according to halal regulations, if he keeps a Deli that is filthy and fly written, he may consider his customers to be insects. But he cannot have insects in his business, and expect to earn a living. So in order to succeed and make sales where he is, he's gonna have to Maintain a certain sanitation level, a certain regard for the dietary laws of the people that he serves. And so people who are running the art market right now they're functioning as if they don't have to pay attention to the Invisible Hand. OK. They can just plunder and loot and steal, and Robin misappropriate, and distort and or press Infinitely. It doesn't happen. It's not sustainable. You really. The Golden rule is best. You love your neighbor as yourself. You know. If you don't do that, then.

Verneda Lights

You know. Look forward to the time when you will no longer be in business. You know, because, like I said, the Confederacy, the American South fail for a reason. It was bad ethics. Slavery's bad ethics. It was bad business Plantation, just took and took and took and took plantation system, gave nothing back. It robbed the land. It robbed the people unsustainable, and it was bad government, and that is why they lost the Civil War. And it will be the same underlying principle that is responsible for the fall of the Mega art World and the large museums. If they don't pay attention to what they're doing. So that's all I have to say. Thank you for listening.

Thank you for Anita. The mention of inclusivity reminds me of how that's one of the tenants that we have in our manifesto. I'm sure everybody here is happy to, you know. Be part of something that's like that. I'm wondering if there are any questions for any of our presenters.

I just wanted to say one thing and jump in as part of

This group. And you know, in terms of helping to formulate the community and stuff like that. I think. You know, we all collectively have an opportunity to make change by exerting, you know, and embracing curatorial decisions that are overtly inclusive. Trying, you know, with the Southampton show. I did my best to try to make it as gender equal as possible, and you know, as diverse as possible, even though inherently. Just look at the people in this room. You know what I mean. So it's not something that just happens automatically.

Colin Goldberg

You know, it's something that happens through conscious choice and effort. And I think that you know hopefully, that's something that we can all sort of make happen, or at least move in that general direction. So that's my spiel.

Thank you, Colin. Cynthia, you have to give your hand up.

Yes, following Colin's remarks and Renaita's remarks, which certainly get at the issues about artists. I think. Unfortunately, many artists are not respected regarding the value of their work. And I think this starts with education. Schools do not all have art programs, nor do they want to support them. Or do they understand that the creative is embedded in art and then can open up into other areas of life that are so important that to create is a human skill that can transform the world, and unfortunately, on schools do not do enough worldwide.

Cynthia DiDonato

Now, this is not to say there are schools that do embed art programs. But I think to put everything on an equal plane globally, that attention to art is extremely important, and it should be one of the subjects that is paid attention to. You hear a lot about stem programs that a science technology, engineering and math. Well, there's also the steam program that includes art, and I think that is something that has to be nurtured. Because in order to respect artists, you have to understand that art is important, and it is valuable. And it has some important role in the world today.

Cynthia DiDonato

That's my spiel.

Thanks very much, Cynthia. Oh, yeah, go ahead there. I see, Stephen has his hand up.

Can you hear me? I got a new okay. I have new earphones. Thank you. I've not been to this group except once before, so I might be off base. But I just want to say that one of the things that makes art unsustainable is when we. My thought, anyway, is that we focus so much on the artifact and not on the process that gets us there. What I mean by that is. If we focus so much on product and the demand of the market. We might sacrifice the ideas that normally flow through artists to generate that. So now we start replicating something that has already been done. The replication eventually wears out.

Stephen Carpenter

I had an art history professor who told me once that art history is about the stories of the work and the artists. It's not about what you see on the wall. Everything on the wall is the residue from the art process. And I'm thinking that maybe that's where we are. And it certainly isn't this group, because we're pushing on things that aren't even there yet. So our ideas are fresh, but that's not necessarily true Of the market. That might see.

Stephen Carpenter

That might see all of the market and the and the glut of the market as a Bellwether, that things are falling apart. And I don't, and I don't know what that all means, so I'll just lower my hand now.

And thank you very much. Steven. Michael Price.

Hi, yeah. So for 30 years I was paid for my creativity, and that creativity was bent to product. And I think that's where we are on. All of this is that there are markets for product. And so there is no pure creativity market. There's no art market for creating art. It's for creating product. And that's the issue is that we subvert creativity through education to be worker bees to fit, you know fit in here and there. And if you look at the history of most of the Techspressionist artists is, we've survived by creating product. And it's only when we get to be older, or we get some independence that we can use our creativity in the way that we really absolutely have always wanted to be able to do.

Michael Pierre Price

And so all the creative avenues are hit, driven industries where you know big names make all the money, and then you have all the tiers below it that never make any money. And most of us are in those areas where we're trying to survive because we're not big name people. And so, therefore all the abuse that Renata or yeah, that Vreneta was talking about. And the exploitation happens so much because it can be. Because if you're not willing to do whatever it is there are, you know, multiple people behind you are willing to put up with terrible working conditions and things of that nature. So yeah, III submit that if there were legitimate Markets for creativity that were based not on an end product.

Michael Pierre Price

Then artists could survive and maybe someday we'll get there. I'm not seeing it.

Thank you very much. We have Cynthia Beth Rubin next, and then Ross has her hand up after Cynthia.

Hi, so this is a great discussion. And II really wanna thank Renee for her summary of giving us perspective about the international, the world and cultural hierarchy. Because I think that's really important to consider. Those of us who kind of escaped in a way into academia as a way to earn our living. And so I supported myself through teaching and that allowed me to avoid thinking about the art market and to concentrate more on what I call reputation building, and I actually have earned more money over the course of my life by being invited to give talks.

Cynthia Beth Rubin

Being. Many people know I was flown to Japan for many years to jury something, and in that arena I think that there's a little bit more flexibility. But still it's an ongoing struggle. And II am so thankful to Techspressionists because I think just having these salons and trying to find a way. We've been over here on the side, trying, struggling with the automatic translation which isn't working the way we wanted to yet, but we will if you saw me looking up, it was because I was translating on the side and pasting it into the chat.

Cynthia Beth Rubin

So that's all I wanna say, I wanna thank thank everyone in this group. Thank you for your observations. And I think we can make a joint Commitment to try to move forward together. Even in little ways, because every little bit it's important Cash. So thank you.

Cynthia rose, and then Susan, and then I think we're coming close to 1 35 or so. Is that right, Colin?

Yeah, II know we are getting really close here. I'll make this quick. I've been doing all time. But I just want to recommend a book. I may have brought this up before. As most people here know I'm spiritual person, interface ministry, and also art. It's always been all combined. But there's a book by Lewis Hyde, called The Gift. And it's an interesting book, and primarily for me there were a few pages where, in the beginning, where it talked about the fact that you know, in the early days of exchange and bartering, which is something you can still find, I think, in some countries like Africa, where you trade 3 beautiful tomatoes for 2 bananas, or you know. There, there's a there's a real value like when we exchange work with each other. There's a real value in that. And one problem getting back to the whole money thing that we have here in the United States is when money loses its value, and the only thing that people ask you about your work is, what how much did you sell it for? Then we've got? Really, it's no longer about anybody understanding. This is yes, education which Cynthia brought up huge problem.

Roz Dimon

It's no longer about understanding what goes what makes. I'm actually still very for product in some ways, because, you know, I don't know. It's a way for people to see what you're doing. But II do think that whole thing of thinking about what value is cause when everybody says, Oh! And did you sell and see how much they sold this? For you know it's lost its meaningfulness. And when a when an industry loses its meaningfulness. I mean young people I've met for years is that? Oh, aren't! It's like what a joke! And yet it's the new. Of course you know visualization of the world and lingua franca. So anyway, I think we're witnessing to that with this group where, you know, an image is a million images, which is one of my new works are, and other people are doing that too. But II do still think there is a meaningfulness to be sad about this. But we're we are in a huge Paradigm shift.

Thank you, Rose. And finally, Susan.

Well, it's interesting, because when people are talking about. Sis being sustainable as an artist. This witness the list Of things that I have done throughout my life as an artist. Because I didn't. I wasn't a professor. I didn't have a regular income, so I was constantly and still now constantly seeking ways to support the fact that I'm an artist, so I feel like I've lived the life of some one. That's what we're talking about. I've lived that life. I'm still living that life. But and I also want to bring to note that my perspective on the art world is flavored enormously by the fact that I live in Eugene Oregon, where there's a constant effort to locally to push the arts in culture and to claim a place at the table. There are organizations here.

Susan Detroy

The city of Eugene. It's a different I have I from here and my looking into my city. It's a different. It's a climate where there are people that recognize and push art a lot in our local community.

And also

Pay attention to the history and inclusion. So I am. I am witnessing that. But still, there are some places in the community that follow. The patriarchal histories. But because I live in this sort of this town. Not that it doesn't have other elements. I see that. And I'm just saying I'm witnessing it in my own town. The effect of the shift in the view of using Histor historical. We marginalize people using that language. And I enjoy that. I'm just saying I enjoy it, but it hasn't Provided me the income that was that would have made me more comfortable. It hasn't provided me with that.

Susan Detroy

So might caught me. Thank you.

Thank you. And I wanted to say thank you to all of the artists who participated today and who spoke. It's been a really great discussion. And I look forward to cell phone Number 81.

Alright. Thank you so much, Renata, for moderating, and to all the presenters and everyone who is in attendance.

This will be published to YouTube at some point relatively soon.

And you know, we do have a tradition here. Called the after party, which is essentially the Advisory board. So anybody who wants to hang out afterwards is gonna be the board of Advisors that makes the decisions for the topic of the next salon and discuss any initiatives we have going on right now, which there's a couple.

So

With that, I'm going to close out the recording, and anyone who wants to hang out afterwards. You're more than welcome to attend, and just stick around, so

We will be stopping this recording in 3,

2, one and.