Salon 14 // Susan de Troy, Sherry Karver, Deann Stein Hasinoff

Fun all right welcome welcome to our what's this 14 13th 14th I think it's is it 14 I can't even remember now I you know I'm bad at this too it's the 13th or 14th virtual salon that's what we're so it's 14th in the email all right 14 it is 14 14 it is today is march 30th the last day of women's history month and today is actually our second set of presentations by some of the women artists in our movement and community today we have presenting Susan Detroy Sherry Karver and Deann Stein Hasinoff hasenhoff I think I said that correctly I hope I did thumbs up all right good so how we're going to kick this off we're going to start with our three presenters their presentations will last anywhere between 10 15 ish or so minutes have a little bit of a q a after that and then following that we're going to be kind of just opening up for a general discussion what's going on in the next few minutes and then we're going to be kind of just opening up for a general discussion what's going on a lot of discussion about nfts a lot of news about nfts right now in the in our kind of space some of our artists actually being participants and kind of what's going on in the press with nfts so that's exciting and we can talk a bit about that or just other things going on like the upcoming collab the nft show that we're putting on or the whatever that being said two weeks we're doing the opening right for the collab yep in two weeks so we'll build that into the schedule so stay tuned for that yeah and what welcome welcome and thanks for being here I think I'm going to now hand it off to our first presenter and right now I have Susan Detroy as our first presenter for today so susan you have the floor if you're

Ready to go I'm gonna pronounce my name for you which is Susan Detroy oh I'm sorry detroy it's french or you can be french but that's okay all right fyi so I'm in eugene oregon and this is whoops this is actually a view not far from my house so I thought I'd do a virtual background of something that is near my home so I'm sorry I'm just gonna go ahead and start the recording for a second if everyone could just mute yourselves other than the speaker that'd be most appreciated thanks I was actually about to do that myself all righty I'm gonna time myself so that I can tell so my background is I came to using digital actually through a lot of years of photography I had a business as an analog photographer I used black and white and infrared and color print film all that kind of thing and also did a lot of what was called alternative photography with polaroids and transfer kind of work and built have a lifetime of series five different series in that kind of work and I'll show you a couple examples if you're interested and so I came through to digital work through my photography business and studying photography I was an analog photographer I worked in a dark room for a lot of years in a science lab at the university of oregon and I was initially really resistant to digital when it first happened when and I was in the middle of the far north and when I was in the middle of the war in the middle of a health challenge and the digital took my business down.

Susan Detroy

When digital came along, it took my analog business down and I was not happy about that. So I want to screen share. Can you, let's see, I can do that. Okay. All right. Tell me if things are coming up okay. Are you seeing my iPad? Yeah, everything's fine. We all thought it was part of a historic experience.

Susan Detroy

So what I'm going to show you is just, these are the galleries that I have. I have an online portfolio. I'm just going to briefly, this is the kind of work I used to do. I used to do in infrared with animals. So this is my infrared work. And before also, I did a kind of printmaking that used photography, transfer prints. If people are familiar with Van Dyke Brown and cyanotype.

Susan Detroy

I did work in that in the past. Dragonfly and cactus were my main things. Okay. Then, let's see, what was I going to do? So I'm going to go back to the Zoom and stop sharing. Okay. How do I get back into, okay, there. I have a new iPad. So I'm getting used to using this really beautiful, big new iPad. So that was the work I did for a lot of years. And then about five or six years ago, when I still had an Android camera, like a, I can't even remember what kind I had, but I had a little Android camera.

Susan Detroy

And I took a class from a woman named Susan Bain, B-E-I-N. She's in Portland. And it did that really iconic thing. It literally changed the course of my life. I became enamored with the cell phone camera, but I was still using analog and digital a little bit, but mostly just for art. And once I took that class, I took on some digital apps and then I took my iPad and then I ended up getting an iPhone because I like Apple products so much better. And I also was introduced to a group through a woman named Joanne Carter, who runs the App Whisperer. She's in the UK. I don't know if people know her. And that, When I started seeing the work that other artists were doing that was app driven on their iPad, then I was pretty much dedicated to that kind of work. And then about three years ago, I started a series called Portrait of a Woman, which is self reflective and is completely about female aging.

Susan Detroy

It happened because I was really unhappy with what was in my head about aging. I was looking at myself. And I didn't like myself. I had all that kind of cultural stuff going on. And I decided, this is a compressed version, but I decided I would just turn the camera on myself all the time. And it was not easy. And it's still not easy. And then I eventually started melding my own image that I would take with the iPhone. And then I would capture other images of natural things, leaves and mostly leaves, trees. And then I started using apps to meld those images together. And then I became more experimental.

Susan Detroy

So I still am creating this series pretty much all the time. But I'm also doing other work. So I'm going to show you. Okay, I'm going to go back into screen share. Okay. So this is what's in my portfolio now online. The work that's I have it divided into two sections. One is work that. Is. Currently not available. Well, not available for hard copy, which is not completely true anymore because I have. I've done a lot more. Anyway, I'll go. I'll go a little bit slower. That's silly to go fast. But this work.

Susan Detroy

This is a good example of a melded piece. Where I used my dog and some dandelions, that kind of thing. So there's. This is a little bit more. More recent. Last summer, I think. So I'm continuing to do this work. And then let me go back. In the past, before COVID. All this work. I would produce digitally, but I would. I, I come from my home. I'm the model of the. Gallery model because I was a gallery director. In a couple of two or three different galleries over in the past. And so I have that. And I come from a hard copy. Photography.

Susan Detroy

Production. Model. So in my mind, I. Up until the pandemic, I was thinking about. Making work, but then that end product would always be a hard copy. So. I. So I divided my portfolio into the pieces that were. Available. For hard copy to show in museums and galleries. So. That's what I was doing. Before. The pandemic. Yeah. And then after. The. So that's changed. And I'm starting to change that, but. After the. During the pandemic. I also produced a. A series of. I started. A whole series on. Using video and some still work. That's called.

Susan Detroy

Born of the pandemic. And this work is not as well. So that's so much curated, although. Somewhat. Curated. It's just simply put in the portfolio, but this is all work about masks and. And being in the pandemic. So. I started. Humans and then this is our work that was created digital work that was created. This more floral and. Things that happened to me. During the pandemic. So also.

Susan Detroy

As I mentioned, I started. At the beginning. At the beginning of the lockdown. In March. I. I. Started a video journal. And I didn't know where that was going to go, but I. Recorded myself. For. I think it was. Six. 90 days. And then I turned that. Video journal into. Film. Called in the now. Which is I can share. It's not. It's in this gallery. That I have. It's a 49 minute film. That mixes my.

Susan Detroy

Journal journaling from the, that period of time. And also. Still images. Captures digital captures that I made. Over time. In Oregon. Okay. So. Let's see. I'm going to get out of there. So I. So what I'm going to do is. I'm going to show you. Now. I'm just going to show a few. These are some of my more recent. Pieces.

Susan Detroy

I use a number of. Digital cameras that are within. The iPhone. The hipstamatic camera. And the blackie camera. And then I take. The pieces. And I. Work on my. New iPad. Using a variety of. Apps. I also have. A YouTube channel. That's somewhat together. That shows. And this is more recent work. Where I'm. Digitizing. Even more. And making things move.

Susan Detroy

That's. Some. Time. That one's a little hard to see, but. I'm. Just. I'm doing. I also am doing collaborations. I just, this is a collaboration. You can see this is my work on one side with my face, and this is a woman named Jo Sullivan that I did, and I also do some collaboration with people, commissions.

Susan Detroy

This is a commission as well as this. Okay, I'm getting to the end. I just. To show one more thing. Okay, okay, here's a quick, I also did, I think I mentioned I did some experimental videos, and I'm going to show a really short one that I did. Can you see this okay? Oh, the sound's not playing, but anyway, this is a video I did for this window front display event that happened in downtown Eugene that I worked with my neighboring artists to create.

Susan Detroy

So, okay, I'm going to get back into the Zoom. Stop sharing. Okay, I tried to keep it under 15, so. It's really nice work. Thank you. Beautiful. Thank you, thank you. Boy, that was kind of like a little, I felt like I was going really fast trying to get it in, but I'm going to do it. Thank you for letting me present. I think your pacing was pretty good. What? I think your pacing was fine. Okay, good, good. Yeah, you do have one, at least one question that was asked during your presentation.

Susan Detroy

Anne wanted to know what some of the apps that you use to meld your images. Oh, okay, if I'm allowed to, do you want me to say out loud, or I can screen share and show my app? Sure. Okay, okay, I'll screen share that. And you'll get a sense of the crazy amount of apps I own. Okay, so I, here's, this is my iPad.

Susan Detroy

These are my cameras. These are my, these are my photo apps. Oh, wow. So, mainly, I use, well, it depends on the piece, but I use this painter-esque quite a bit. Waterlog, those are two basic ones I use. Snapseed, Alien Sky, I adore Alien Sky, and Bloomlog. So, there you can see, I use a lot. I have a lot. I don't use them all every time. I also have blending apps.

Susan Detroy

Diana is one that I use quite a bit. It's kind of clunky, but I like it quite a bit. And another is, if people are interested in an app that's super deep, is iColorama. I've taken at least two or three classes in that app. It's very, very deep in as much as it has layers within layers. So, and then I have video making apps.

Susan Detroy

Okay. All right. That's the answer to the question. All right. Does anyone else have any questions or comments for Susan? Who needs desktops anymore, right? Me. I know. Now that I have this, like, really giant iPad, I used, you know, I have one, like, this size. Yeah. This is my old iPad. Yeah. And now I have this Pro giant iPad, and I hardly can have my desktop anymore. The Pro is really a fantastic platform for creation. It really is. Mm-hmm. You know. What did you say? I didn't get to you. The iPad Pro is a really fantastic platform for creation. It really is. Yeah. Yeah. I just got this, like, a month or two ago. And the size and the size of the iPad is just, like, it's just, like, it's just, like, it's just, like, really fantastic.

Susan Detroy

Right. Yeah. Okay. Susan, can I just quickly – Roz here. Hello to everybody. I was offline for a bit. Had an earlier kind of crisis going on with a client, which I'm sure people can relate to. Life gets in the way of art. But I'm back on and hello to everybody. And thank you, Susan. That was great. Question. Do you – Cool. Working on pieces for a long time in Photoshop, honestly, on a desktop where pieces get, you know, into getting like one gig or bigger, multiple layers within layers and layer sets of these diamond scapes I make sometime. I'm wondering when term, and these are 300 PPI on your iPad pro, are you, do you find you're limited with resolution or stuttering or can you make them as big or as high or as large as you want? I mean, the apps really limit the size. Yeah. The apps produce, and it varies from app to app.

Susan Detroy

And I can't get really very big. I would, a lot of the apps. From that. Yeah. Yeah. And yet as things start moving to online virtual, it's like, you know, if it's not going to be going out to physical space, it's, it's a great thing to use, I guess. Well, one of the issues for me personally, as an artist and some people would say to me, well, what, how do you reproduce, when I was still thinking of reproducing things to canvas or prints, how do you reproduce and keep things true? And I, and I have to say, honestly, I sort of don't care. I'm not my, my work is not of the type where I feel married to like I used to, I don't, I no longer feel married to the color or exactly how it looks when, when it comes back from the print lab. I'm just like, Ooh, that's exciting. It looks good. I don't have that particularity about that work, which helps when you're reproducing something.

Susan Detroy

Oh, I was just cause here, here's, you know, like, here's a, where's the camera like this? Oh, it's not going to show it, but I just would get little canvas prints online. Yeah. I think that's maybe a larger discussion if we don't have presenters, sometimes about resolution and what you're going out to physical or virtual. I think that's a very big issue right now because there's such a big virtual market alone, but thank you. Thanks so much. Yeah. Thanks for having me. It was very fun to prepare. Thank you. Thank you.

Susan Detroy

It was indeed a pleasure. And I will say your last name correctly from now on. You're welcome. All right. Well, thank you very much. Susan.

And let's move right along to leave. Sherry Karver is our next presenter for today. Sherry, you're here. Yeah, I'm here. All right. Hello, everybody. I'm so glad you're all here. And I want to thank a number of you for starting to follow me on Instagram. I really, truly appreciate that. And I enjoy seeing all of your work too. So several meetings ago, I showed you a series I was doing on glitching, but today I want to show you an older series, my surveillance work that I really haven't shown in quite some time. And I really do want to share that with you. So let me see. It's a two-part series. So let me see if I can screen share here.

Sherry Karver

Let me see what I have. Okay. Let me share that. Can you all see that? Yes. Okay. Okay. So I'm going to talk a little bit about the series. Oh, this is not, it's not my glitch series yet. I'm going to start right up here. Okay. So I have a two-part series on surveillance and I use very low tech technology to do my fine art work. I started this series actually around 2009. And I've been doing this for a long time. And I've been doing this for a long time. And I've been doing this for a long time. And I've been doing this for And I finished it around 2007.

Sherry Karver

So I began this first series really before nine 11. And I'll talk about the work as I show it. I really became kind of enamored with the screening machines at airports. When you put your carry-on luggage, you know, through the conveyor belt and you can see the inside X-ray, you know, pretty much like an X-ray of our own body. And before 9-11, airports were very loose and they let me get really close to the monitors and nobody complained that I was photographing the monitors as, you know, the luggage was going by. And I did many, many photos up. I never really knew, though, how I wanted to present this work. So I just sort of saved them up and kept them, which is good, since now we're not allowed to get anywhere within like 100 feet of the machines. And what I realized was that most of the stuff in the carry-on luggage is simply not that interesting.

Sherry Karver

Shoes, clothes, eyeglasses, whatever. It's more what we are afraid is in somebody's suitcase. It kind of goes into our own fear about that. And so I decided to kind of enhance the images with my own additions. And in this case, you could see I added the gun. All the other things were actually there. So again, I said I didn't know how I wanted to present this. And then around 2007, I was invited to have a show at the Morris Graves Museum in Eureka, California. I'm in California. And they wanted the surveillance series. So that really got me thinking about, you know, how am I going to present this in a museum setting? And it just all of a sudden dawned on me, I should do this in a light box and in actual suitcases.

Sherry Karver

So I got a bunch of vintage suitcases and I cut out the front panel. And then I had the images made into light boxes that I then installed inside of the suitcases. And these were all hung on the wall in a row, kind of like you would see them on the conveyor belt. And they were plugged in, so they lit up. So this one, the steel-toed boots were actually in the front panel. And I had the images made into light boxes that I then installed inside the suitcases. And this was during the time when there was a big thing about liquid-filled bottles and that you couldn't have anything more than, you know, three ounces in your suitcase. So then, of course, I started to add, you know, these little liquid-filled bottles here, the magenta one and the blue and green one. But everything else was actually in that suitcase.

Sherry Karver

This one, the shoes and all the little items were in there, but I added the little M90 firecrackers. And I was doing this sort of tongue-in-cheek, but again, as I mentioned, it plays into our own fear of, you know, what might be in somebody's luggage. And these are all the size of small carry-on suitcases. This one is about 15 inches by 23 inches by about seven inches deep.

Sherry Karver

This one had these odd little bottles and a spoon in there. I'm not quite sure what those things were, but I've, of course, added the scissors that looked like they had a little bit of blood on them. All made up. And this one I added the Big Bomb jumbo firecrackers and the little pliers at the bottom.

Sherry Karver

This one had a bunch of wires and glasses in there, but I added the pliers again. And you can see these were all old vintage suitcases. And it's really hard to cut the front of the suitcase. But this one has the bottom one and the bottom one. So it's kind of easy to cut case out and I have a, you know, still look okay. And I have one more from this part.

Sherry Karver

This had one white shoe in there. I don't know where the other shoe was, but of course, then I, I added the gun to it as well. So I have several of these, but then I decided I wanted to do more with this series besides just the suitcases. So I began another part, I call it part two, webcams. So somehow by accident, I found webcams on the internet and I really got into looking at them. And this was when cameras were first out there on buildings. And I think there was a lot of, oh, hesitation and outcry from people about, is this invading our privacy? You know, should there be cameras on all the buildings? Of course, now this is very common and surveillance cameras have become kind of a way of life for us. Now they're on the web. So I found webcams on the building and every place we go. I think we are the most photographed and documented generation in history because we're always on some webcam somewhere.

Sherry Karver

So I decided to start looking at webcams in different parts of not only the country, but the world. And, you know, I could sit comfortably in my living room in Oakland, California, and I could tune in to things that were happening, you know, virtually everywhere. Anywhere in the world. And I decided to specifically look at websites of places that had some kind of meaning for me. And I love New York. And this is 46th and Broadway near Times Square. And they had a camera that was quite low on a building so people could see themselves. And you could see people would hold up signs. They would, you know, this middle one, they would hold up their babies to show other people, you know, and I was just fascinated with this. So a little bit of voyeurism, I think. So I took many, many pictures like this.

Sherry Karver

This one is called The Wave. And these people obviously knew that camera was slowed down and they were waving. And it really made me feel kind of that idea of alienation and loneliness that these people are just kind of waving out into space in the hopes that somebody, like me, could see themselves. And I thought, well, I don't know if I'm going to be able to sitting there is going to see them, you know, and maybe relate to them and wave back. Although, of course, they couldn't see me waving back. But it really, you know, kind of set up that whole feeling of our only interaction sometimes is just through the internet.

Sherry Karver

So getting back to the kind of Times Square area around 45th, 46th and Broadway, I wanted to do a four-part piece showing this particular intersection, which is the intersection of the New York Times and the New York Times. And I wanted to show you this particular intersection in different seasons. So this was fall and it was rainy season when I caught this image. And then this one is the exact same intersection in winter where they closed the entire street because of the snow. But unfortunately, they took that webcam down. So after that, I could never get spring and summer. So I had to move on to other webcams.

Sherry Karver

This one is a train track in Krakow, Poland, which is where my mother was born. And I kind of pictured my mother possibly standing on this very platform, you know, years and years ago waiting for a train. And I especially like that it was time stamped at the top of when I took this picture to know exactly what time, what station. It was in 2006.

Sherry Karver

So all of these pieces I printed out. And I painted them with black and white and I hand painted them with layers of oil glazes, mounted them on wooden boards, did some more glazing on them, and then they have resin surfaces. So that's how I presented these in conjunction with the suitcases. This is the Western Wall in Israel, a place I visited several times. And what I really liked about this webcam or what fascinated me was if you look down here at this lower, right hand corner, you see that brown lattice fence. The women were praying on this side of the fence and the men were praying on the other side of the fence. I'm not sure that still happens nowadays. But back in 2006, that is how they had that separation. It's probably still like that.

Sherry Karver

And then I lived in New Orleans. I went to grad school in Tulane. So I lived in New Orleans for a number of years and I really liked webcams that are down there. This one is called Burbo Cam and it was on Bourbon Street and it was during Mardi Gras. You can see they had like heavy police presence. I don't know what was going on there, but a lot of police.

Sherry Karver

And this is the last one from the series, and this is called Oyster Cam. And this was an oyster bar in New Orleans. And this one was kind of the most personal for me because I like I said, I'm sitting in California. I'm watching these people eating in an oyster bar. That I probably was at, you know, in the past and they're alone or maybe they're on a date and they have no idea that they are being watched by somebody on the other side of the country. And there's something like so voyeuristic about it yet so delicious about it that I kind of couldn't stop looking at these. All of these webcams are in motion. You know, things are constantly happening and I just capture one still like this one. But they are totally in motion. And a moment later, this might have been a totally different scene.

Sherry Karver

So that's the end of this series. And I just wanted to just catch you up to what I'm doing now. My movement interrupted. I showed this series to you guys, I don't know, a couple months ago. So I'm only going to show you four little quick things. These are data corruption glitches that I'm photographing off of my TV screen. And I just wait for the screen to pixelate due to uneven reception. And I do like maybe 100 photos to get one interesting one. So I don't really do any manipulation on these at all other than minor cropping. The TV is just literally channeling these images to me. And I'm just harnessing these data corruption glitches for aesthetic purposes.

Sherry Karver

This one's called The Dancers. This one's called Anonymous Man. This one's called Visiting Apparition. I don't know if you can even see this kind of pale apparition on the top here, right-hand corner. This is actually a little video of Jared Neiman, who's a country-western singer. I really like his music. I was watching one of his little videos, and it started to break up like this. And then this apparition appeared. So I had to kind of click that. Oh, and all of these pieces I have printed professionally.

Sherry Karver

As dye sublimation on metal. I tried doing them on paper. They did not really look that good. There's something about that metal substrate coming through, shining through the surface. That just works really well, I think, with this kind of technology or the glitches that happen. And then the last one, this one I just caught the other day. It was from the ice skating show that was on TV, Ice Skating Championships. And this was one of the skaters. So that catches you up to my current work, and you've seen my old work. So now I'll try to unshare my screen. I can figure out how to do that. Stop share.

Sherry Karver

And we close that. So any questions? Questions from anybody? No? That was fabulous, Sherry. That was fabulous. Thanks, guys. Great presentations. I have to just say, I have to say that I have always loved those screens in the airport. And I had in my mind years ago that I was going to do some kind of show, including the conveyor belt or something. But that was so great about, I mean, those images at the airport are gorgeous. I've always found them fascinating. And I know other people may have questions. I had written, but I think Michael Pointer answered mine. I wrote and said, well, how do you get your TV to cooperate? And he said, oh. It's antenna versus cable. And I went, well, who needs, who wants reception anymore? I mean, if you can get great art like that, I don't think I even want to watch TV the way I used to.

Sherry Karver

You know, it's better not to watch it where you can really see it. Those are wonderful. Thanks so much. Thank you. I don't have cable. I just have the old antenna. And I have an old junky TV. And it just does it all by itself. I don't think my husband's going to really like it when I want him to trade in. He's not going to be happy about this. Do it for art. Say it's for art. Oh, totally. Yes. He's used to that. That poor guy.

Sherry Karver

All right. You do have a couple of questions in the chat. One from Sue. She wants to know, have you tried data moshing? I don't even know what that is. I was going to ask you if you know what that is. I'm low tech. Low tech. Gotcha. I'll look it up, Sue. I'll look it up. Yeah. It might be something you can explore.

Sherry Karver

And then Colin wants to know, are your metal prints produced on white surfaces or is the substrate the bare metal? It's usually the bare metal because I like that silver coming through. The only time I've had one done on a white background was when there was a lot of white in the actual image. But otherwise, the metal surface for me works better.

Sherry Karver

That actually seems to be a very common thing about some of us. So that make prints of our digital work that, you know, we found that aluminum or metal just seems to lend itself to a better appearance. Because I know that's what I use with my stuff, too. But it's great. I love it. So, Sue, if you're in here, you might actually have to explain yourself about what data moshing is because now you have people asking about it. Yeah, cool. So, it's actually one way of doing. It is to open a video file using a program that isn't for video. So, you might get a copy, an old copy of Audacity, which is a sound program, an old one. And you open the video and you can see all the hexadecimal information. You change a few things, save it, and then open it and it glitches the video.

Sherry Karver

Yeah. So, that's the original way of getting glitches on purpose. But it's still quite, you don't get exactly what you want most of the time. It's quite chaotic. So, it's fun to do that. All right. Can I take a moment and tell you an interesting story about early glitches? I have a long history of making art and curating. And I was curating an exhibit in the early 90s. And I included Graham Nash. I included Graham Nash from Crosby, Stills, and Nash in the exhibit. Because he was actually a photographer before he became a musician. His dad was actually a photographer as well. He bought one of the very first digital printing machines. And the first thing he did was take it completely apart. I asked him about that. And he said, I think I can make it work better. Okay. He took it apart. He put it back together.

Sherry Karver

He didn't like the quality of the black that was coming out. So, he invented a new black. I think he still owns the patent on that black. And he printed out the images that he wanted me to consider to put into the exhibit. And they were okay. I would put them in the exhibit. He said, can I show you something else? I said, sure. He opens a drawer and he pulls out these things. And it's the same photographs again. But with all these glitches. And he said, I think these look really great. And I was amazed. I thought they looked wonderful. I said, yes, we should put those in the exhibit. He said, no, no, no. I don't want anybody to see what I did wrong.

Sherry Karver

I could not. I could not convince him that they should be seen by people. He was just too worried that he'd be greatly criticized by putting them out in public. Yeah. Funny how things have changed. Yeah. Now we're doing it on purpose. Yeah. That's funny. All right. Well, thank you very much for your presentation, Sherry. If no one else has any questions, I think we can. Oh, Victor. I just wanted to say, Sherry, great work. It was really nice to see you here. And we've corresponded before. It's the first time or last meeting we saw each other. But great work. It's great to see you. Thank you. Yeah.

Sherry Karver

Thank you. All right. Well, again, thank you very much, Sherry, for your presentation. Thank you. Very wonderful work. That's very nice.

Okay. So, moving right along into our third presenter for this afternoon, evening, wherever you are. We have Deanne Stein-Hassenhoff, which I'm not sure. Yeah. No, you got it. Okay. Cool. Most people, when they read my name, call me Dean. So, I'm not sure. But you're doing well. Great. Well, I got one name right today. Oh, you got them all. So, that was even better. Oh, cool. There we go. All right. Well, you have the floor. All right. Thank you. I'm just going to share my screen here.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

All right. All right. So, as Davo said, my name is Deann Stein Hasinoff and I'm coming to you today from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, where it's a little less spring-like than I'm sure it is in some other parts of the world. We just had some snow yesterday. Hopefully, that'll be the last of it, but you never know, living where we live.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

So just to give you some background about me, my first career was in speech language pathology. And I specialized in working with adults who had sustained a brain injury. When my first child was born, I surprised myself and everyone else and decided I wanted to be at home with them. And so I started my second career. After my second child was born, I wanted to try something creative, and I started taking painting classes. And this eventually led me to taking a visual arts certificate through the Faculty of Extension at the University of Alberta. And in that program, I found a job. I found that I loved abstraction and that I preferred drawing to painting. And then this led to my third career as an artist. And although parenthood has its moments, I can honestly say that the art as a career has taken me far out of my comfort zone in many ways.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

So when I talk about my art, I always like to post my very first artwork from when I started taking classes. As someone who found art in my 30s, I want people to see that just because you didn't grow up drawing, painting, and sculpting or what have you, that doesn't mean you can't be creative or that you're not a creative person. Oh, hey, Deanne, for a second. I'm not sure if you wanted the screen to be presented the way that it's currently showing us, but... Oh, is it showing... Is it not showing the... It was showing like your outline structure. Oh, okay. Sorry. No, it's all right. Well, now it's up to you from memory. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

So you don't have to be creative and you also don't have to be amazing the first time you make something. So before I got into digital, I liked to work in series. So my first series had to do with the brain. So coming from my inspiration from working with people with brain injury, this was to represent what I thought was going on in the brain at the time. And so Game Changer is about malformation of blood vessels inside the brain. And Fade In, Fade Out is about emerging consciousness after an injury.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

And then my second series was about dementia, which started because I was watching... I work in my spare bedroom and I was watching my neighbors moving out of their house. And one of the reason they were moving was because one of them had developed dementia and they had to move into a different location.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

And then in 2013 is sort of when everything changed. Right. And so I developed what I called at the time allergic to the world syndrome. So I developed severe sensitivities to chemicals, the environment and foods. So I like to say that it affected what I eat, what I wear, what I do and where I go. So it became really difficult for me to make art in general. And after trying all different kinds of mediums, I finally decided I was going to have to give it up. Because there's just nothing I could find that would actually not cause a reaction. And then a friend of mine suggested I try apps. And so I went online and I started looking up on my phone on apps and I found one that I liked. And I sort of started drawing from there. And I haven't really looked back from that.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

So as I said, I like to draw in series. And I also... When I'm drawing, I started drawing from a place from automatic drawing. And so I don't really have an idea of what I want to do. I just sort of draw something and then the image or line or shape or shadow or something comes into play. And I use this to kind of help process all of the significant change that was going on in my life at the time. And that ended up becoming a series called All Exits Look the Same. And I'm going to show you a little bit of that. And there are about 27 drawings in this series because I had a lot to process at the time. And so this is one, Overwhelm Overcome. It's two separate drawings.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

And it's to represent the idea that sometimes nothing in your life actually changes. The only thing that changes is your ability to understand and manage what's happening. And then these are some other drawings. Even though I don't necessarily start out knowing how the drawing is going to go in the beginning, eventually as I'm going through it, I kind of get an idea of how I want things... How things are progressing or the idea starts to form. And then I kind of use that and...

Deann Stein Hasinoff

I pretty quickly recognized that it was a drawing about my husband. And so I just kind of had that in mind when I was drawing that. With the automatic drawing process... Even though I have an overarching idea of the series that I'm working on at the time, sometimes stuff just comes out and I have no idea how it relates to what I was planning on doing in the first place. So I just kind of save them and sometimes they kind of fit in. Eventually I can see how they fit in and sometimes I just keep them, you know, they're just separate from what I was doing in the first place.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

In 2015, I participated in a group show with photography and people who were working with digital art. And from that, I kind of got inspired by what some of the artists were doing. And I did a few where I combined my photography with my digital drawing. And in this particular one, I didn't actually take this photo. My husband took it because it was at a time when I couldn't actually be outside a whole lot. And then I just put my digital drawing over top of it.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

So that's that. So part of the way I manage my chronic illness is through walking, through getting some exercise. And so, excuse me, one day I was out in the river valley and I looked down at the ice and I was like, wow, look at all those awesome like shadings of gray and black and white and what have you. And that just started a whole new avenue, a whole new series for me in terms of taking photos of the ice and then coming home and abstracting them. And then it didn't take long before I went into an image that I was happy with.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

So I like to get out into the river valley as much as possible. But sometimes not always possible given the season. Some aren't as good for me as others. I like my world cold and dead. And then my most recent series was Catching Smoke. So after working on All Exits Look the Same and I found processing what was going on in my life.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

I decided to turn that same lens to anxiety, which I have had experience with my entire life. And so through that, I developed this series. So one of the things I love about digital is the ability to cut and paste. So Anxiety is Born came together pretty fluidly, but Wait and Feeding the Wrong Wolf went through many iterations before I finally got to where I was happy with what it is. And it was entirely through the ability to just save what I was doing, open up a new page, try something new, go back, see if I like that one better. I find digital to be really freeing in that way. I don't get so tight when I'm working.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

For this series, I also wanted to incorporate text in some way. And so some of the drawings, I was able to do that. Like Sherry, I'm pretty low tech tech, so I don't... This was done on word processing and with importing the photo into that and figuring it out that way. After I was done that series, I was a bit frustrated with the app that I was using because they had made some changes and I just didn't find them to be as user-friendly as it used to be. So I was trying to work with Procreate.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

And I'm still trying, but I'm not sure I've really found my groove with that. I haven't used that particular app yet. So I switched back and forth between that one and the one I use all the time. And whichever one I find least frustrating at the moment is the one I kind of work with. As far as my photography is concerned, I spent a lot of time waiting in my car in the last year.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

With COVID, you can't be in a waiting room anymore. And with my kids, with their activities, depending on what the infection rate is, and whether or not they're allowed to have any, I spent a lot of time sitting in my car. So I started taking photos of things while I'm sitting there waiting. I've started to incorporate some color into my photographs. And I also am kind of... I'm becoming more interested in less picturesque types of landscapes.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

And that's all for me. So that's my Instagram and my website. My Instagram is the most updated one. I also post other things. I post in terms of creative stuff. But, you know, it depends on the day. So thanks. And thanks for letting me be a part of this group because it's really showing me how I can stretch my digital work in ways that I would never even have thought of. So thanks.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

All right. Thank you so much for your presentation, Deanne. Another great presentation. Wow. Yep. Very much so. Go ladies. Women. Happy Women's History Month. Yeah. You know, the only thing I don't like about calling something a month is like, oh, we just get a month. Right. You know, we're out there. So I say keep going. But boy, this was really terrific.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

It was. Does anyone have any questions for Deanne so far? Or just a lot of appreciation? You can share words of appreciation too. It doesn't have to be a question. I'm going to be... I'm just raising my hand, Davo, if that's okay. But do you use... We were talking about how you go from page to page. Do you use layers when you're working or no?

Deann Stein Hasinoff

In the app that I use the most, there wasn't that capacity to use layers. So that was why I would always sort of copy the drawing and then move it onto a new page so that I could do that. I do like that feature in Procreate where you can actually just layer stuff on and then take out what you don't like, you know, as you're going along.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

But yeah. So yeah. So part of it is just trying to figure out how to make the app work, you know, to the best of my ability, which I'm not a high tech person. So I get really annoyed if I have to fuss around too much with stuff. So I try and do it within my limited patience. Well, they have a very dark kind of depth for something that's abstract. You know, there's something that's so compelling and draws you into them that... They really are nice, very nice work.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

Thank you. Thanks. Diana, did you have something to share? I saw you unmuted yourself. Yes. I was just really, I think, inspired by the way your process works. I'm a TBI patient myself. Oh, okay. So my... My art comes a lot from a brain injury and multiple sclerosis, but to the automatic aspect of your writing, I almost... Or your art.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

I almost... I could sense it in your presentation and in your artwork. I could almost feel what you were feeling, I guess. That's my thought. Thank you. Thank you very much. Because I often wonder... You know, you always wonder if what you were feeling is conveyed in the image. And so that is very... That means a lot. Thank you very much. It was to me. I got it. Yeah.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

Yeah. Anybody else have anything to share? Yay? Nay? Victor? Yeah. Well, I just wanted to say, Diane, I love the abstraction. The feeling of the work and the way it's operating graphically, I think it really is successful in conveying the feelings. So I just wanted to let you know that I thought it was great. Thank you.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

All right. And you definitely have my respect as another digital jar myself. I do. A lot of what I do is... It's a mix of like... It's automatic drawing versus like with painting elements with other stuff, just all kind of thrown into one thing. But yeah, I know that feeling of just kind of just going and seeing where it takes you and then taking a step back and was like, oh, well, that's nice.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

So definitely understand that feeling. All right. And just a comment about the resolution in terms of apps. That is definitely a challenge when you're trying to reproduce it. There's workarounds though. So I can reliably print like eight and a half by 11 on my home printer just to do test prints. But anything larger than that, I have to scan to a higher resolution and then my printer can print it whatever size I want after that. So it's a bit fiddly that way, but it's doable. You know what's interesting? The opposite kind of problem you can have if you're doing a lot of work. You're doing really large pieces, like even on a big Wacom screen, which I have. When I'm doing these large pieces that I set up to be like four feet by three feet or something like this, I really never... Until I go out to the physical piece, I'm zooming in and out.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

But whereas I used to paint going up and back to my canvas, it's like I'm zooming in and out and working close and then going back. But until I get it out there and really make the piece with Lamont or whoever, wherever I go, I've never really seen the whole piece. It's almost like working digitally and then, hey, whatever someone wants to go out to, I mean, that's an exciting way to look at digital too. And what I find so fascinating about all these presentations is how individualized they are. Is there really a movement? Seems like there is in certain areas going on with game kind of drawings and stuff and fantasy. But then I look at some of the things today and they're all so different. But I don't know. This revolution is really interesting to contemplate. It's hard to put. In categories because so much is going on.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

It's just mind blowing. I have a question. I was wondering about that one piece that you did where it was drawing on top of a photograph. Did you do any more work along those lines as far as developing it into a series? Because that one in particular seemed very different from a lot of the other pieces. And I guess this is sort of like a secondary question that tells into the first one is that does the work provide some sort of catharsis for you in some way like in terms of you talked about the emotional aspect of it and a lot of your presentation? I mean, my father passed away pretty recently and he had dementia. So in the initial presentation, I was thinking about that and how they at the assisted living place, they brought someone in and had him making artwork. Right? And he, you know, he took, he was a photographer, but he never really did anything with painting before that, that I knew of.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

And it was interesting, you know, to see what he produced. But, you know, with regards to your own work, like I was wondering, do you find that it provides some sort of catharsis or do you use, you know, your studio practice in that way to some degree? Definitely. So it was actually suggested to me way back when I was first developed my illness. I went to see a psychologist for a while because just my life had just sort of turned upside down. And she suggested that I try drawing. And my original drawings were just sketches. They were just, you know, line drawings of all the stuff that I was, you know, stuff that happened in my day or whatever. And then I realized over time that I could turn that. Into an actual like abstraction.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

And so it played a huge role in terms of helping me sort of process all of that stuff that was happening, which is why I wanted to do it with the anxiety as well. Now I'm kind of wondering what I could do next, because I kind of feel like I'm in a pretty good place right now. So, you know, barring some other, you know, challenging event, I've got to figure out what I'm going to do next. But yeah, I like what I was going back to the photography. The photography and digital stuff. I thought, oh, I haven't done clearly. I haven't done this in a really long time. Like those were from 2015. I'm like, maybe I should go back and start looking at that in some way and how to incorporate that.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

I'm either in the land through using the landscapes and the digital or some other means. But I definitely that's an area I could I could expand on more. So I think that's a really good question. All right. Thank you. Okay. If no one else has any more questions for Deanne, I think we can wrap up the presentations because that's it. I don't believe Susan ever.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

I mean, it's not Susan, Sarah. I don't think she ever made it. So that's going to close that out. Thank you so much. Sarah. Wow. Susan, Sherry and Deanne. Thank you so much for your presentations. It was really a pleasure. All of your work is amazing. And can't wait to see more of it because I think I am following all of you on Instagram. So, yeah.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

And that being said, that closes out our presentations for the day. And now we can get into just kind of general discussion and news with what's going on. With, you know, the movement or the community. Anyone have any interesting news that they want to share with all of us or yay, nay, possibly? David, do you want to open it up with maybe just talking about the salon, you know, since we've been sort of working on this for a while and, you know, when we might want to open it up and have a little online opening and all that kind of stuff?

Deann Stein Hasinoff

For the for the collab? The collab. That's right. It's all good. Long days. It's only halfway over. It's all good. So, yes, very, very early on. For those of you that don't know, very, very early on in the start of these salons, I actually presented the idea of having a community collaboration project.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

It has been messy. I will say that it's been it's had a bit of a rough season. It's still actually kind of rough going because I've never actually organized anything like this before. And corresponding with so many people is on a fairly regular basis is kind of outside of my normal activities. But I'm getting there. I'm getting there. Anyway, the whole idea was to pretty much have artists communicate one another in the same way that, you know, Basquiat and Warhol did their famous collaboration all those years ago. And I'll. I'll just try to kind of channel that spirit with this movement and opening up or trying to facilitate collaboration between members of our community.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

And the first round had 10 participants. We have works from eight of them because the last group, they just kind of dropped off the face of the planet. Haven't heard from them since. But we do have. Eight. Eight participants for which is for pairs and their finished works. And we finally have all those curated and uploaded to Kunstmatrix, which is where we're going to be showing our virtual exhibition.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

And. Yeah, we're the next meeting on 413. We are going to actually be showing it to everyone that's going to be in attendance. So if you're going to miss one. That's kind of a big one, but it'll be all right. It's going to be recorded. So if you'll find it on YouTube and also the exhibition itself is going to be available for anyone to go into and look on Kunstmatrix itself and on the website.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

So, yeah. Anybody have any questions about that or. About. When you're saying collaboration. Is it one person. Doing something and. And somebody riffs off that or are you actually working on the same piece or is it a little bit of a mixture of everything. Yes. Yes. Well, the thing is that I left it up to the individual pairs to decide how they want to collaborate. If they want to do like the first way that you were describing where you know one person sent a piece and then somebody rips off of that. Or they both. Worked on the same piece together back and forth. Like I left it up to the individual pairs to decide how they want to do that as long as like there was like three finished pieces at the end of it that could be submitted then.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

That's done. I have a question. Yes. Is this something that's ongoing is there going to be another rendition of this. Yeah, there's actually right now there is a second. Collaboration. Project going on with a second group of artists. That one is still going. As I think actually people were asking me. When to when they can send me work, but.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

If you're done, you can go ahead and send to me via email with the same one that you reached out to me. But yes, the collaboration is going to be an ongoing thing. The timeline for the project. It's been wonky like really wonky because. Correspondence has been very loose. To say the least. And so having a hard deadlines. I'm going to try and make sure for the next time. Absolutely sure. Next time that we have hard deadlines set in place so that. You know, I get feedback from the people that want to participate and so they can be paired up or they can have choose people to collaborate with. In a more timely manner so that you know everyone's out there and they can participate and they can have a conversation with you and then we can start working on that. So I'm not kind of held up waiting on that information.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

But yes, there will be another one. Absolutely. I because I'm very much interested because. I have a goal of doing collaboration for 2021 so I would like to participate in the future. Right. And I, and I will say this too. For those of you that want to collaborate with other members of the movement. Feel free to reach out to them and just like if you worked on something. Send it to me. And we'll probably do something with that too. Like, because I, I know that.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

For during the second round, there was a couple of people that paired off on their own and started working and I had no idea. So, I just want you guys to be able to work together and create together, and then us to be able to show it all off to the world and show the world what we've made what you know you've made. So, yeah.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

So, it's a very different kind of work. Free to do so like you don't you don't have to necessarily just wait for the next event okay understood okay got it so there was a question from the group so if you're you know in this show if you're a member of one of the four pairings please you know don't release any sort of data links that I sent to you guys to review I'm still waiting on bios and stuff like that from some people and also just you know working out of the user interface ideas to present it on our site but the gist is you know like you'll be able to view it on our site and like if you guys have seen anything on kunst matrix basically it's a vr gallery or if you haven't you should check it out there's a link to it in the footer of our site they're actually a partner with us so in exchange for us placing their branding on our site footer they gave us like a super duper premium package in exchange which is like you know not even one that you can buy on their site apparently but you know we have the ability to have a lot of work hosted there and multiple online exhibitions so I'm thinking you know it would be nice to be able to have a collab with a brand that's a little bit more of a brand that's a little bit more of a brand that's a up and public continuously so in you know overlapping any other exhibitions because like we have this nft show that and Spalter is curating right now there's an open call for it on the home page and also you can get to it there's a redirect set up from nft now show dot com and basically like you know that's there was an open call that went out off of call for entry recently and we're also you know just yeah basically like you know there's a link to it on the home page but that's really aimed at people that have already minted nfts like I know ann has been sort of overwhelmed with people asking her you know for a lesson on how to make an nft and it's a fairly involved process so you know I would recommend you guys if you have an interest in learning about nfts if you do a search for the nft bible that's a document that's on open c which is a very you know kind of like a cross-platform platform so to speak for nfts that indexes all the different nfts that are you know that are written to the ethereum mainnet blockchain and that particular document if you just search the nft bible you'll find it is a pretty good primer that being said you know when the nft show opens which we're opening that up during freeze week which is going to be in the beginning of may I think may 5th there's going to be you know a big sort of push you know to drive traffic to the site and the exhibition so it'll also drive traffic and views to the collab show we're going to have them you know both up and running at the same time and you know like I think that the initial show tax rationism 2021 you know the nft show sort of just came about as a result of the pr firm that we're working with recommending that you know we take advantage of the fact that everybody in the world is talking about you know people and nfts and so instead of trying to like turn the original show into an nft show which would be logistically almost impossible to expect people to you know be able to mint nfts this is it was not presented as an nft show we decided that since ann is she's you know she's been on the show for a while and she's been on the show for a while you know affiliated with super rare she's spoken on their panels and is selling you know a good amount of her own work on that platform she's sort of the authority figure within our group with regards to nfts and I had asked her if she was interested in curating it and she was agreeable to that so that's kind of what's happening with that and the original show the tax rationism 2021 show since this nft show is going to open up the next year we're going to open in may and probably run through the summer I sort of made an executive decision to just push that show that next show off to the fall because there's no real reason to have a giant gap in our schedule in our exhibition programming the next thing after that's happening that's definite is the physical show which is going to be at Southampton Arts Center and that's opening up on april in april of 2022 and that's confirmed that's a done deal we had a lot of people that were interested in curating it and we're going to be doing a lot of work on meeting with them with their executive director last week and they're very they're psyched about you know the show and we're talking about potentially seeing if we can get it to be a traveling exhibition again like you know this is all sort of not fully formulated at this point but we're just trying to work out you know some of the details and I'm going to be co-curating that show with Anne Spalter she also her ann and michael Spalter are going to be doing a lot of work on that show and I'm going to be co-curating that show with michael Spalter have a very large collection of digital art going back to the 1950s so some of the work from that collection is actually going to be on loan for the exhibition which is going to I think frame it very nicely from an art historical standpoint and you know make it something where you know the contemporary Techspressionist work is contextualized in some way both with the early computer art but I think more importantly we're looking at within the you know within the sort of philosophical you know an artistic framework of expressionism which is the premise of this idea really is that Techspressionism is a direct outgrowth of expressionism and sort of you know conceptually I'd like to think it picks up where neo-expressionism leaves off that is you know artists like boscia or even david sally who are doing this and I think it's going to be a great opportunity for us to you know who might be considered neo-expressionists, not working with technology, but certainly a continuation of figurative expressionism.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

And also abstract expressionists like Pollock and Franz Kline and those guys, Rothko. You know, Techspressionism to me, I think, you know, in a lot of ways, you know, originally like it was something that I just cooked up as a title for a show to talk about my own work. And then, you know, I started thinking that really it's not something that I would choose to have it be defined by a certain aesthetic. Like it doesn't all, it should not all look the same. To me, it's something that is really about the artistic approach of using technology to express emotional experience. And it doesn't need to necessarily all look the same.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

To me, it should, because it's not about a style. In fact, like early on when we met with Helen Harrison, who's the director of the Pollock-Krasner House, she made a suggestion that we change the definition from an artistic style in which technology is used as a means to express emotional experience to an artistic approach to really, you know, take the style out of it. The style is something that's, you know, personal to the artist. And it might be something that is very techie looking with fractals and all sorts of other stuff. It might have typography in it. It might look like abstract painting.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

But really, you know, and sort of like the tricky part for me is like, if I'm looking at a piece, right, I don't know what the emotional intent of the artist is. Especially on Instagram, where a lot of times you don't even know the actual name. Of the artist or where they're located, their gender or anything. They're just like, you know, here's the works. Why, too, you know, some weird, some weird handle, you know. So, I mean, really, like, as like when I've been curating the feed, for instance, I've just been trying to base it on work that I feel is visually strong. That clearly uses technology and, you know, especially people who are using the hashtag to help sort of. Propagate the concept, you know. But I really like, you know, from a curatorial standpoint, do not want this to be.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

Something where it's just another label for digital art. There's a million and one of those already. And it's uninteresting, really. So, you know, that's not that's not the goal. And part of the connection to Southampton is that, you know, well, for one thing, I grew up out there. And, you know, got to spend time at the Pollock house when I was young, like, you know, just visiting it. And it definitely had a big impact on me seeing, wow, like, you know, these multimillion dollar paintings and, you know, moments, stuff like that. They were created in this little shack, essentially, where Pollock and Krasner first lived without electricity or running water.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

You know, it really sort of like. It. Made an impact on me, you know, and his story and everything else like that. And so, you know, the east end of Long Island is really a place where the expressionists, especially the abstract expressionists, but also figurative expressionists. There's one named Lester Johnson who's starting to become better known now. Now he's no longer on this planet.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

But, you know, figurative expressionists as well, all sort of convened out there to escape New York City. You know, and there's a big sort of cultural history there. So I think, you know, to be able to bring expressionism to a physical space for the first time as a group, it makes a lot of sense for it to be happening there where it's, you know, 20 minutes from Pollock's house, 20 minutes from where Rothko has been buried for a long time now.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

Where de Kooning worked and there are a lot of other people out there, too, like Warhol. Had a place in Montauk, I think. And, you know, people like Lichtenstein, the pop artists as well. So at any rate, you know, I'm kind of rambling here, but I just wanted to let you guys know that it's, you know.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

I think I struggle sometimes with trying to figure out what it actually is, you know, but, you know, I think. Ultimately, I want to make it really sort of clear that, like, it's not about work that looks a certain way. That's not necessarily even what constitutes a movement, although many people might think it is. If you look at something like Fluxus, you would never know that all that work is under one umbrella if you looked at the works individually. So, you know, I kind of maybe equate it in some regards to that. Anyway, I'm going to stop talking. I'm going to stop talking now. It's fun stuff. It's fun stuff.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

Yeah, it really is. Real quick question before we get off into NFT world or wherever this goes, or is it, Davo, on the collab thing, do we have any sort of guidelines for the fact that, you know, I've already been in the first collab and, you know, I'm thinking about, I'm talking with someone about maybe doing another one. A lot of people haven't even done it yet. So, I mean, it's in democracy, you know. It's not a big deal. It's messy, like you say. It is quite messy. That's the best we have. So, can you speak to that a little? That, to be completely honest with you, I have not given too much thought about people that have already been featured in a previous exhibition participating in future ones.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

The thoughts that I'm having is that I think priority will definitely be given to the fact that, you know, I'm not going to be doing a lot of work on the large audience. I'm going to be doing a lot of work on the children and the children in the community. I'm going to be doing a lot of work on the children and the children in the community. I'm going to be doing a lot of work on the children and the children in the community. I'm going to be doing a lot of work on the children and the children in the community. I'm going to be doing a lot of work on the children and the children in the community. I'm going to be doing a lot of work on the children and the children in the community. I'm going to be doing a lot of work on the children and the children in the community. I'm going to be doing a lot of work on the children and the children in the community.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

I'm going to be doing a lot of work on the children and the children in the community. Participated so far or what want to participate so yeah I'm keeping track great great that sounds good yeah I don't think any of us who've done before if we submit I wouldn't have any problem and I already spoke to someone I'm talking to about it and she said the same like we've both been in one so you don't necessarily it'll be fine if you come back and go hey you know that I'm just saying that's cool yeah we have a deadline for round two yet ish I know that's not what we want to hear kind of I said tentatively the I think it was april 15th april 16th one of the two because I the last correspondence came out like two weeks ago so it was a full-time month from then because then the like the definitive list for who wants to participate was disseminated and the partners were given out and assigned or picked so okay oh cats are doing stuff sorry hey I'm just throwing something out there it's kind of nice to be able to jam a bit but I don't know how colin and Davo or anybody else thinks about this but you know in terms of how we promote the collabs is it is it of any interest to maybe take a screenshot of the artist in that collab you know off of the zoom for any kind of promo purposes or just these are the you know we could all meet take a screenshot and just use it somewhere it's just a thought but it's kind of fun because it says hey this is how I haven't even none of us have even met each other so I thought it might be kind of an interesting usage of that yeah hopefully we can get everyone all eight of us that are in the show if we can get everyone to show up next time you know I'm happy to cut up a grid and pull out the participants that's a good idea though yeah okay great so do you want us to come like early a little or I thought I'd be on a plane but I don't think I will and I saw Davo nothing stops him from coming to the meeting you know he's in a car I recently did that too but would you want us maybe to try it out yeah I think it's a good idea to come early or just during the meeting and you'll pull it apart or what do you want to do colin well maybe I mean you know I figure like you know we already have three presenters lined up for the third for the next the next one in two weeks the 13th so I figure what we'll do is we'll do the presentations first since you know the presenters might need to go somewhere or whatever and then after that we could do sort of like you know just an informal opening and hopefully like if we can get everyone there I mean if someone isn't present I'm sure we can get them to like take a screenshot of themselves or something and shop it in you know I mean you can do anything you know I mean I thought at some point it'd be pretty cool to like do some sort of weird publicity photo where we actually like find some picture of people like all sitting there's a picture of like I think it's like they're called like the ninth street artists or something like that like all the all the new york school like abex people and there were definitely female artists in there too like there's some famous shot of them all like sitting in like you know it's like a black and white photo to like Photoshop in people's faces or something that'd be pretty funny but no you know like we could definitely do that you know all like just be looking at the show at the same time and be in you know and be able to chat about it next next time we have I believe it's so we have Andrea Bonaceto bonachetto and clive hold yeah so it should be a good lineup andrea actually if you guys hadn't heard or I posted it on some of our social channels he was at a couple of the early salons and he was actually the guy that first kind of like got me interested in nfts I guess he's been involved in blockchain stuff sort of from the business side for a while but also has been doing these portraits and if you if you google him he's under the in the artist index under uk but he's from italy he sort of made some headlines recently and I had seen a story about his collab with a robot called sofia where he worked with this robot and the AI he did a portrait of the robot using I guess some sort of graphic software he's been doing these he calls them vectorial portraits and then I guess the robot collaborated in like helping to paint and add color to the portrait of herself.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

And it was minted. I believe it was dropped on Nifty Gateway. And then literally like I was watching local Long Island news not that long ago. And there was a story and they didn't mention his name, but they pulled up an image of the artwork. And I was like, that's Andrea. You know what I mean? And my wife is like who you know and then I googled it and before the story even came on because there was like a teaser of the story and you know he sold this nft for close to seven hundred thousand dollars in and I guess they said it was in it in an auction in hong kong but I believe the drop happened happened on nifty gateway is pretty remarkable shocking actually but I'm going to be interviewing him tomorrow for our YouTube channel so that should be pretty cool and you know if you guys have any questions that you want me to ask and feel free to shout about I'll throw them into the interview I'm glad you're interviewing him I didn't realize that but that's good can you ask him if there are any platforms he might recommend because right now what's happening is you have these curated curated platforms well rare rareables not really curated but there's rare art and a bunch of them but now you've got a bunch popping up and you've got semi-fungible and it's confusing you know I mean for all the newbies because everybody thinks that they can take a picture and sell it as an nft and become a millionaire so it's a matter of filtering out the junk and as well as the junk platforms and finding a way to do it legitimately well I mean I know for me I've tried a whole bunch of them you know and certainly have been waiting online for super rare and you know I've tried a whole bunch of them and I've tried a whole bunch of known origin and a bunch of them I finally like you know sourced out an invite to foundation which I was excited about but you know like originally like you know like and I recently dropped open c is a really good platform to get started on because you can you know pay an initial upfront gas fee but then mint as many works as you want and then the purchaser pays the gas fee but the thing is it's not truly minted like until it's purchased that is and there's an upside and a downside to that because like if you decide like I decided when I got this foundation invite I was like you know what I'm going to pull my work off open c and I did that and initially I thought I would have to pay a gas fee because if you burn a token you do need to pay a gas fee but with the way that open c is set up you can actually go in and edit the nft and then delete it and then it never actually is written to the blockchain until someone purchases it so you can like remove it and literally like you could you could mint an entire collection of like 100 pieces after you paid the initial gas fee thanks to sue buyer she actually let let let us know about that you know so I jumped on and started you know trying some stuff out and I'm at this point in a very confused state with regards to all this stuff because I minted I like removed this piece that I had on my blockchain and I was like oh my god I'm going to have to pay a gas fee so I went on open c and I admitted it on foundation and then I see that when I look it up on open c there was a transfer made to some other ethereum address and a wallet of someone that I don't know who it is and like it wasn't showing up on foundation and then there was an offer made to that person who on open c it says is the owner of the nft so I went on to foundations discord and they said that basically they were going to make an offer to someone who was the owner of the nft and they said that basically once you mint something it goes into escrow for the platform so that weird sort of address is actually foundations you know it's the it's the wallet that's used to for the contracts rarible rarible does the same same thing I have two minutes on rareable and like 13 or 17 semi you know on open c waiting you know for that contract it's frustrating because I see that someone actually made an offer they saw it on open c and they made an offer but I can't actually act on that offer because the offer was made through the originating platform no it's through I was like oh I met my reserve and then I went on the foundation and the bid wasn't showing and I was like what's up with that you know so that's when I jumped onto their discord so you know it's just an experiment you just have to experiment you know and it seems like every day there's another platform popping up so you know it's just really you know just a trial and error process as far as I can tell there's actually a platform that ann and I both end up discovering I'm not sure when but apparently it was around the same time because I saw her tweeting about it on twitter but there's a platform called which yeah it's which I think it's latin for here and now if I'm remembering correctly anyway is a very new platform I think it's like not even like two months old or three months old at this point and they are billing themselves as a more environmentally free I mean environmentally free platform and they're like oh my god I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to get out of this but I think it's a very I think it's a very conscious platform because of the rising concerns about you know the economic impact of ethereum and what ethereum mining it could be potentially doing to the environment and so as a result of that they were like well there's got to be a more energy efficient alternative cryptocurrency to use and they were like well tezos is a cryptocurrency that is a lot more interesting than ethereum and they were like well tezos is a cryptocurrency that is a lot more efficient and there's quite a few artists I think we they recently just cleared like 10 000 minted objects on their platform and I actually just sold this past weekend sold my first nfts on that platform and I mean they weren't for a whole lot it was more of experiment than anything but I did manage to sell two editions of an nft on that platform and it actually sold two editions of an nft on that platform and it sold two editions of an nft on that platform and it sold two editions of an nft on that platform and it sold two editions of an nft on that platform and it sold two editions of an nft on that platform and it sold two editions of an nft on that platform and it sold two editions of an nft on that platform and it sold two editions of an nft on that platform and it sold two editions of an nft on that platform and it sold two editions of an nft on that platform and it sold two editions of an nft on that platform and it sold two editions of an nft platform called lazy.com yeah I saw that too yeah worth joining because who knows yeah the nft as far as like networking and marketing goes for nft stuff apparently twitter is the place to be but a lot of these platforms are branching out onto Instagram to try and incorporate some of the collectors there to get them interested to get on these platforms and start collecting nfts there so there's going to be a lot of there's just going to be a lot of new stuff constantly popping up as you know things get more and more solidified or more streamlined and the channels get more solidified and what they offer and what they're supposed to do yeah there's yeah there's yeah there's a ton of facebook groups now so if you want to try and sell an nft now you got it you have to network and be become like if you if you don't have if you don't have like already like a huge following behind yourself already like if you don't already have like thousands of followers behind you that are familiar with your work and have collected your work you're probably going to struggle like me with getting a few sales but it's possible it is possible like I've only been at this for a month and like someplace Platforms like Rarible have a much more of a social component.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

Like OpenSea really does not have any mechanism to follow people or even message people. Hence, I see that I got an offer and I can't even contact the person, which is really frustrating. But like on Rarible, you can actually search for the top collectors that day and just follow all of them. And then odds are like at least one of those people will follow you back. And that's how I started to build up a following on Rarible which I don't I decided not to use Rarible because their fees are extremely high they are so high you know but that was one where like you know you could definitely start to build up followers just by following people and some percentage of them follow you back and twitter you know functions much more virally in that way than Instagram does that is like you know you can start following people who are you know really active nft artists and a lot of times like people do like these twitter chains where like they'll have a whole slew of people hey follow me back and add you to the chain or whatever then you go and follow all those people and it gets retweeted like Instagram really doesn't work that way you know in any kind of viral way so like you know I think that's also a big reason why why nft people are gravitating towards twitter and also a lot of the people that are involved in nft you know art are crypto traders and they're crypto devs and they're people who are already in the world of crypto and maybe they even work with and for some of these platforms so you know those are the people that are already vested in cryptocurrency they've had you know made money in crypto and it's held in crypto so another way to diversify is to buy and trade art so a lot of these people you know they'll sell something then they'll just go and buy like you know their buddies work or like they'll have they'll be like these sort of crews of people like I ended up buying like a bunch of people and they're like oh my god I'm gonna buy stuff connecting with one guy who's like a coder on twitter and you know he has a whole sort of crew of people they're kind of like unrareable actually that I guess you know I've been involved on that platform for a while I think some of them are devs on that platform so you know like a lot of it is kind of like you know going out there I mean it really depends on your level of interest on this stuff and I think different people but there's an artist named trevor jones who you know if you google him you'll see he hit a lot of people who are the record sales at different points on almost all the different platforms.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

And he started out primarily as a painter and he was pairing his NFTs with the sale of physical artworks and sort of pioneered that idea. And even though like a lot of his work is digitally animated versions of his paintings, there's still some sort of a connection. Like, I'm not sure if he sells them together or if the purchaser of the NFT gets the physical painting, but, you know, it's there is a physical component to the asset. And I think that's a trend that I'm starting to see more and more now, whether it be like there's a company called Infinite Objects that makes physical frames, you know, for NFTs that you can hang on a wall. So sometimes NFT artists will sell the NFT in a physical frame and then that's the object. And the digital asset together.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

What's the name of that one? The company? It's called Infinite Objects. Ah, OK. And from what I've heard, you know, they're pretty nice. I think a lot of the there was that one show might have been in Atlanta. There was a show somewhere pretty recently where it was physical. It was a physical show. It was a show in a gallery space with NFTs all on screens. I think I posted it on our Facebook group or page or something like that. But I'm pretty sure they use like, you know, either Infinite Objects screens or something similar to that. You know, I don't know how the NFT is loaded up onto the, you know, onto the device. It might I don't know if it's actually like pulling it off the net somewhere. There's also I heard about this in Clubhouse at one point someone was talking about they were developing.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

I forget the name of the company, but something they were calling like a caster. So like it would connect like say you're an NFT collector and you own a bunch of NFTs. It would cast it would screencast everything in your MetaMask wallet to like your screen, your TV or to your tablet or whatever, you know, which I think is probably something that'll, you know, become some sort of standard way of people doing things. Yeah. There's.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

Actually, I don't know if anybody does time based art, but there is a platform called Black Dove and Sedition Art and Black Dove has started to tie into NFTs so you can put your token when I put something on Black Dove, I can actually put my token. And I'm not sure how they're it's new for them, but I'm going to see how they work this together. It's just another way to get out there. Yeah.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

It's a streaming app. So people they buy the Black Dove app, subscribe to it, and then they get art streaming through. But somehow I don't know if they're brokering the NFTs or what. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said before, there's a lot of a lot of new stuff happening just very rapidly. Yeah. Yeah. I also heard that Fort Matic is going to be rebranded. Yeah. I think they're going to be rebranded or they're not going to be Fort Matic anymore. So there's sort of two it seems like there's two main wallet companies or whatever. Yeah. Matic and Metamask. I used Fort Matic to sell on OpenSea because I couldn't change to Metamask.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

Yeah. Apparently they're Fort Matic just got like a huge round of VC funding. So they're and they're going to be rebranding as Magic, which is probably a more memorable name. And hopefully I find them to be a little easier to use personally than Metamask and more user friendly. Really? Yeah. I think I have some. Yeah, I do have some experience that because I believe actually Fort Matic maybe is safer because the way Fort Matic that they recognize you is use your mobile phone or Google syndicator.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

Yeah. So I think that's a good point. Because I know most of people around the world, they only know Metamask because it's been running for a while. It's not like Fort Matic is a startup. The problem with the Metamask, I should say the problem with Google Chrome is the same. Once you get on Google Chrome, it's always easy to get hacked because I was I got hacked about three weeks ago. I was freaking out.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

Totally. Yeah. So I changed the password, username and everything. But I figured out probably because I have a lot of transactions from OpenSea because I now I added the entire hack software that I noticed that there's a lot of attacks from other countries or even maybe from the United States. Fort Matic actually for me. I think it's a little bit safer. Because but the thing is that you have to have a mobile phone. That's how it works. It's not like a Metamask. Metamask wallet is like you just remember your C phrase and you can lock. But the other way, whenever who know your C phrase from somewhere, they can totally just go in to find your find all your assets. So just you know, this is not any finance advice. Just share my experience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I believe that everything I say you know everything who wanna take in the public as we have to make like sort of like a disclaimer.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

Yeah. It's like the Wild Wild West right now. It really is. And I think you know also like one thing you know to sort of you know think about as far as these giant sales go is just looking at it from a first person user standpoint there's nothing to stop me from wanting to sell something at first hand and trying to sell something creating an account called you know randomizer123 with my own other wallet address and just buying my work which you know from what I've seen on the forums it happens routinely as a way for artists to produce sales commodify themselves etc marketing really isn't that different from anonymous purchases at sotheby's or christie's to be honest from what I've heard speaking to curators about this phenomenon with nfts they're like you know shill shills and this same sort of phenomenon has been going on in physical auction houses for a very long time so it's nothing new it's nothing native to digital digital art you know what I mean it might be the dealer you know buying someone's work at christie's for a giant inflated price because guess what they're gonna benefit from it so it's like the modern equivalent of that I think you know because there's plenty of stories about people and the sale and you know that might have been tied to some coin that he was vested in with some other person whatever but I mean it's not a new story it is literally just a another way to market like that is that is a marketing tool and I was actually talking to somebody else not too long ago about just the things that are some people are saying are problematic with an artistease they've already kind of been issues within the art industry in general already like that people have been dealing with for years now there are some unique things like just because everything is digital art theft is seemingly on the rise like that's that is a real thing that's happening people like just trying to mint someone else's artwork to sell it for a quick sale and then they disappear that is something that's happening yeah but I mean it's not it's not necessarily a strike against the actual use of nfts it's just kind of par for the course something that you just kind of have to be like conscious of when you're producing artwork like this and you know digital artists for years before even mfts were a thing they were still having issues like that happen where you know their artwork would be taken away from them and then they would be taken downloaded from somewhere else and someone would upload it for like a t-shirt or a hat or some sort of merchandise or a celebrity would even take one like I think there was an issue that happened with like chris brown a couple years ago where he took a piece of art that he found on Instagram and like threw a filter on it and like erased a couple of details and was trying to pass that off on it as his own and the original artist found out and he was like what are you gonna do you're small that was that I mean it's a thing like art theft is still very much an issue that's it I mean that's one reason that these platforms are going through a verification process you know like unwearable like you know you have to go through a sort of process to get verified and fill out a bunch of stuff and then confirm that's really you and stuff like that so when collectors are buying from a profile that's verified by the platform the likelihood of it being someone other than the actual artist is going to be able to access it so it's going to be a little bit more complicated than if it was just a virtual artist but then there's the fact that it's going to be a virtual artist but then there's the fact that the actual artist is lower you know right so that's sort of like I guess the justification for there being curated platforms and verification procedures yep yep yep I agree that a lot of the controversial issues are just art world issues they've been going on for a long time but some of the things are that one of the things I think is very interesting that is new is from what I understand you can distribute to payment to more than one person automatically and if that becomes easier to do yeah I believe it's true then one of the age-old problems in the art world is getting paid by your gallery royalties not speaking about my experience I happen to have a really good gallerist I've been lucky that way and when he sells something I get the 50 quite quickly he's very good about that but I hear tons of stories all the time from artists that are more than just let's don't get paid for their sales or they get paid for a small fraction of their sales and even if we end up in a situation in two or three or four years where we're still working with galleries but they have a new nft division the payment the moment of payment can be automatically distributed whatever percentage to the gallery and whatever whatever percentage to the artist without any hassle whatsoever about that and that could be one of the biggest things that comes out of this.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

That was actually probably the single, like most exciting part about this outside of, being able to sell digital art. But the royalty aspect, which. Oh, the royalty as well. Exactly. Yeah. It's, it's, it's crazy. Cause you, you really, there's no work on your behalf. Like if your work gets sold or resold by somebody else, you're still making a profit of that. So if somebody tries to resell it at a much higher rate than what they acquired it for, you're still getting something from that. 10% or whatever. And that's major. Cause I mean, art can change hands multiple times over the course of its existence. And you're still getting paid for that. Yeah. So Devo, Devo just said on open sea, I put one piece up just to kind of figure out how to do it, you know, and it's been sitting there and I haven't really been promoting and it's an older piece.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

And I think there's something exciting to be said about doing something a little different now, but to that point I didn't see anything where I heard anything about resale or anything. Is that just, and I didn't see it in their code or anywhere. Do you know if that's, is that true across all the platforms or do you know, or not some platforms offer royalties, but not all of them yet. Not most of them are heading towards like the platform I'm using, Hiket Nunk that I think they are, they just two days ago, they're, they're playing with the resale and royalty feature. I see. So if you don't see it, it, maybe it isn't like an open sea. Maybe that isn't. It might not be a thing yet. It could be on the way. Yeah. Okay.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

Well, it's no worry yet. Cause the piece is just sitting there. Yeah. But you know, it's kind of fun if you can, at least if you want to try, I don't think it hurts anything to put a piece up just to learn how to do it. I mean, believe me, I was scratching my hair. I mean, like I do work. I can't operate a toaster. And so I got into this field by accident when my paintings filled with pixels and it's been incredibly adventurous and this is all a whole new adventure, but just take the plunge and how bad can it be? You know what I mean? One night I was just sitting there at a glass of wine. I was just like, okay, and I told my husband, I said, look, I'm going to start screaming. And then he goes, oh, you can do it, Roz. And I waited through it, but you just, it'd be good to maybe just put something up to, to, to know how to do it in case, you know, when everybody wants it, when somebody wants to buy your work, which I know is going to happen in like next half an hour, you know, I've got to be ready.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

But it is, it's a, it's a good thing to know how to, how to do it somewhat, you know? And then it's. I will say though, I would probably not advise whining and minting together. That's not a good idea. That's not a good idea. You're right. Thank you. I was wondering, does anyone have an opinion about comparing, Coinbase to Gemini as an exchange platform? There any pros and cons of.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

Gemini? I've never even heard of Gemini. This is my first time hearing about it. I'm just new to it, but I'm, I heard. I heard of all of them. Also like Coinbase and it's owned by the, the same twins that bought Nifty Gateway. And sued Zuckerberg. Nice. So, cause, I was thinking Coinbase would be the one. That's was, and then, Coinbase was getting some bad press cause they're, they're getting ready to do a public option, option.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

And they, and I guess as a result of them, the spotlights on them and they had some, their customer service was questionable, but that might be only for a few people against the thousands who've had good experience. So I just wonder if anybody had opinions about that part of the process. I, I know I personally haven't had any issues with. Coinbase is, but I've only been using it for what, two or three months now. So, I mean, it, I haven't had any issues like with purchasing, cryptocurrency and transferring it to another wallet, like Fortmatic or MetaMask or, what's the name of the Tezos wallet that I have? Something strange. I had, I actually had trouble with, getting my MetaMask to. To work on, Macintosh Chrome and I went over to PC and it worked just fine.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

It basically had to do some, do it just the way that it deals with the security credentials. Just permission. You can set really easy. Patrick, I had that same project problem. Okay. First set up MetaMask. It's in your Chrome settings. You need to let it change in your Chrome settings. Let it chain, except changes from all sites or something. That's what you're looking for. For some odd reason. I, yeah, for some odd reason. I don't think it was working real well for me. That's all, you know, so I was, yeah, I had some similar issues with Mac Chrome and MetaMask too. You do have to go into the press and like do some weird tweak. Okay. Forget it. I think somewhere it's documented on MetaMask, but, it's, yeah, it's a pain. Does anybody know how it works if you sell something and you want to get dollars out?

Deann Stein Hasinoff

I mean, yeah, you can, you can, if you can send, you can send. I'm like, you have your two wallets, essentially your Coinbase wallet is kind of like your bank account. And then you have your secondary wallet, which is housing your, your cryptocurrency for like, like, like metal mask or Fortmatic. You can send currency from those, from Fortmatic MetaMask back to your Coinbase wallet and Coinbase can convert it back into us dollars. Okay, great. It's sort of like your, now the way I understand is that Coinbase isn't a wallet actually. It's so it's an online. Yeah. It's a kind of bank. Yeah. It, it, it feels like, it feels like stock investing, to be honest with you. Well, you have a wallet, you have a wallet there. The wallet is a long hexadecimal address. It's your, you know, and one for each currency.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

So you have a send address and receive address at each, at each sort of like, you know, institution or whatever you want to call it, like Coinbase versus Fortmatic. And then you're, you know, you would send yourself ETH from your wallet. Yeah. And then you would send your, from your Coinbase account to your local wallet, quote unquote, at the platform to be able to pay gas fees and other stuff. And then you can send yourself back anything. Yeah, I did that. Also like if you're using Coinbase, I just signed up for this thing that I guess they're affiliated with, or I don't know if they own it called CoinTracker, which, as I was doing my tax return, I realized I didn't keep track of any crypto sales or purchases. It actually like, I think it's free for like 25. Transactions and it literally generated the IRS form.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

It was unbelievable. I was just like, wow, this is amazing. You know what I mean? And I think you can actually like hook it up to like another wallet. So like, it'll like, because like, you know, say you sell a bunch of NFTs and then down the road, there's people who buy them from the other people and you're getting royalties. All of a sudden there's all these different transactions tied to the price of the currency at that time. And you're supposed to tell the government that like, how could I do that? How could anyone ever figure that out? You know what I mean? Right. It seems to be a pretty cool. Yeah.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

Oh, it is four o'clock. We have to go. Bye. All right. See you, Roz. And everyone apparently. We will wrap things up. Bye, Roz. Thank you. Thank you for stopping by today. The presentations are great. The discussion was great. And more discussions will be had later. So stick around and show up for the next one because we also have the collaboration exhibition for the next time. So, yeah. Yeah. Cool. Diana, I couldn't find you on Snapchat. All right. Thank you for coming by. Bye, everyone. Bye.