Salon 77 // December 7, 2023

Hello! My name is Colin Goldberg, and I am here. At the seventy-seventh rush and salon Today is December seventh, 2023, and I'm zooming in from North Beddington, Vermont. The topic of today's salon is sculpture which is related to not only physical sculpture, but anything that could be considered sculptures such as objects in a virtual space. And I'm gonna open up briefly with a little kind of intro on social sculpture, and tonight's or today's presenting. Artists are Steve Miller and Suzanne Anker both of whom I know from Long Island and no for quite a while, and they're gonna talk about sculptural work within their own practices.

Colin Goldberg

So without further ado, I'm just gonna open it up as far as this idea goes, you know. Really, I do not make sculpture per se. But I tend to like to think of text freshmen as a social sculpture. That is you know, the idea of social sculpture is something that I was introduced to by one of the artists in the group named Joseph Macfittal, and I was doing a project back in the late nineties called Ever Beta, which is still the name of my studio and at that point, and the idea with ever beta is it is constantly changing, like the web is always in Beta, so it's morphed into various iterations. But at that point it was a content network. And at that point also everyone was on dial up and there was not an audience for it, but it was.

Colin Goldberg

I would say, something that provided a structure for the way Techspressionism is in some regards. Now, that is it was loosely based on The idea behind Morehall's Interview magazine, where artists would interview other artists. Which is, you know, something that we've been doing here within the community. But it also extended to poets, musicians, interviewing people in different disciplines, and Joseph related that to this idea of social sculpture which I hadn't heard of before, but it was actually invented by a German artist named Joseph Boyce, who also happened to be the co-founder of the Green party in Germany.

Colin Goldberg

And he created this term basically to embody his understanding of arts potential to transform society. So as a work of art, a social sculpture includes human activity that strives to structure and change society or the environment. So the central idea of a social sculptor is an artist to create structures in society, using language, thoughts, actions, and objects. And as this sort of project called Techspressionism, grew from just a term that I used to describe my own work back in 2,011, and in 20, I think, 2,021. It started as an artist group with myself, Steve Miller, OS. Van Rosen, Patrick Lichty, and Helen Harrison as our advisor.

Colin Goldberg

We kind of started formulating the goals of the project, and when I think about it as a piece of art, it actually feels the most comfortable. That is you know, something that's open, ended, participatory and essentially collaborative, you know. And I think the idea of a social sculpture is very fitting. So anyone that wants to build out something from it the way say, Tommy is creating a show in Brooklyn this summer, or Renata and Tommy and a bunch of other artists are creating Siberiana, which is a virtual environment or environment built within Moselle hubs, you know, that's starting with the community. And so on and so forth. Each one of these ideas branching off to me like, you know, is sort of an armature where it can evolve in A decentralized way. And I think that's pretty interesting. So that's just my. You know, my opening to this topic of social sculpture, since that's the way that I think I might be able to relate to this idea a little bit. But I'm gonna open it up by introducing our first featured artists.

Colin Goldberg

Who is Steve Miller? Steve was born in 1951 in Buffalo, New York, and he's a multimedia artist who makes paintings, screen prints, artists, books, and sculptures, and through his art he explores the influence of science and technology on modern culture. According to Wikipedia. According to Colin, Steve is the person that I was a studio assistant for 30 years ago, and basically learn silk screen printing how to clean silk screens, met tons of interesting people in a studio. But I think most importantly, I saw the inside of a working studio for the first time, which was very revelatory, and something that I wasn't able to experience. As an undergraduate student.

Colin Goldberg

You know, my professors were people that I saw inside the Art Building never really saw what they were doing the rest of the time. So I learned a lot from Steve. One of the main things was. He was not in the artist, in the, in the studio, making work all the time, as many people think. This is what a you know, practicing artist does. He was actually. You know, many days of the week sending out slides back when people use slides making phone calls, doing, you know all of the other stuff. And then the actual printing and making art was, you know, the that was the fun part. So it opened my eyes to like the reality of what this requires, and also, you know, was great opportunity to be in a fantastic space. Renovated potato barn that used to be owned by Frank Stella.

Colin Goldberg

You know one of the other assistants, Robert Barton, printed for Andy Warhol for many years. So it was just an incredible experience. Since Steve has been a mentor, a friend for many years. I helped him build out Steve Miller.com, and to secure the domain before the Steve Miller band. Guy got it. So Steve is. I think, very happy about that, and still his don't. His site is hosted at that URL, Steve Miller so without further ado, I'm gonna pass the mic over to Steve and yeah, take it away, Steve.

Hey, Collin? Thank you thank you for the invitation, and good afternoon. I appreciate being here and I'll I have to say that, Colin. Really, it's been a collaboration, because he really taught me about the Internet. And back in 1992, I think, is when I got my domain, II first heard about the Internet. And it's like, What is this thing? And well, we all know what it is now. 94.

Oh, is that what it was? Okay? So can you guys see my screen.

So I kind of backed into sculpture in a in a, A way that I had not. Okay, we've got to make this

Bigger

Fit the screen. Right? Okay, there we go. And it was a project at Longhouse in East Hampton, New York, and The II done it with a woman name. I was supposed to do a project with Edwina Van Gogh, the who was a trustee there, and a and a well known gardener, landscape, architect, and designer, and the idea was, you had to take care of a living thing in a box for the entire summer. So my idea was to make a steel cube fill it with moss, because you were also obligated to maintain this thing. And what happened was is that she baled and I decided to take some of my X rays.

Steve Miller

Print them on glass, slip them, and do a sheet of steel, and that's you know how I got started on this project. And then I put them in different environments. This is in Times Square, in somebody's office again. I'd had this project called Health of the Planet, and the idea was. If the Amazon were the lungs of the planet. I would have this project where I would go down to Brazil X. Ray the plants and animals of the Amazon. And do this metaphorical checkup for, you know, for the benefit of the earth. And this these sculptures I also did some sculptures which involve books, because I'm a bibliophile.

Steve Miller

This image on the left is actually from the Atlantic rainforest. Those are Amazon leaves from the Atlantic. Rainforest started still screening into books about nature about the Amazon, and started making these book sculptures. So these are just different pages of the book. So I still screened on every page of the book, and you could change the book. You could pull it out from the glass, and kind of make a different composition each time you flip the pages.

Steve Miller

So this is an X-ray python again using those. I embedded those Amazon plants into the glass, and you know you can change the pages and open the book up. And you know part of my thinking was that you could always be refreshing your eyes. So if you got tired of looking at something, and you'd have this reference to you know the land of what was going on, as well as keeping your eye brush about the environmental issues that I thought were really important.

Steve Miller

So I was still screening again on the left this X-ray of a python that I had taken down there, and then I had taken this snake to a hospital, had an X-ray we had fetid a rat. And that's the only way you can get the snake to be dormant and quiet. While you're taking the X-ray. Otherwise they're always moving. So we fed the snake, and Rat took it to the hospital and appropriately called it Love the jungle. And again I kept really enjoying playing with these ideas of books. I'm a real bibliophile. I make a lot of artist books, and this is the color version of that same branch from the Atlantic rainforest, where I stayed a little bit for several years, you know. A few weeks a year I'd go down there and investigate and then I took the book by Al Gore, for I guess he won the Nobel Prize for this Earth imbalance, and I still screen on every page of the book.

Steve Miller

And so again you can open the book on the left. You have images of the wires that are these crazy drawings and the slums of the Brazil and Rio called the favela, and the idea was. You know, law of the jungle. This sort of deforestation is causing, you know, the result of this deforestation are the image on the left, and what you're losing, perhaps, is the image on the right. So it was a real opportunity to start playing with things that I loved. And while I don't think of these as traditional sculptures.

Steve Miller

I really felt it was a great way for me to put my love of books and the beauty of looking through an X-ray, because I think the X-rays themselves are really beautiful. And this you're looking at right now as an osprey From Northern, you know, North Long Island on the north port, and ospreys actually go down to the Amazon when they meet sexual maturity. They, they migrate to the Amazon right after their first summer. Then they Huh! And it gets actually mi mature in Brazil and the Northern Amazon, and then they come back and stay north for the rest of their lives. So this book actually had 360 page spreads in it. So the idea is you could change the image every day. So each each one has been still screened, so you can imagine it takes about a year to make one of these books, and you also have the pleasure of being able to change it on a regular basis.

Steve Miller

Here you're looking at a mirror. Which is that thing that looks like an artery which is actually a satellite map of the Amazon and I use that in combination with the snake and these other imagers about the Amazon for this particular piece another version of books and branches called Library Branch. And here I've combined the X-ray of the Amazon plant with the wires and the Brazil favela. And then an a version of these is, I got more kind of elaborate with you. I started putting these images and bronze and making them really suitable for outdoor use. This is an indoor piece combining that same image from the rainforest.

Steve Miller

And then this is actually the hand of the radiologist. Who has all this metal in his? In his arm when we brought the snake to the hospital, and the book below is a book that Richard Prince got sued from, called Yes, Rosta, and I love that book as well, and it started using it on my own, and then actually met the photographer that did it, and got permission to use the images and the start of one of the themes was the, you know, the deforestation, and you have here my version of a PA tel, which is a an endangered species, which is the Sloth. They're really going through a crisis in Brazil. And this was a commission for the opening of a museum called the Broad Museum in East Landing, Lanzing, Michigan, at Michigan State University, and the building in the background is a Zaha hadid building. So I took these live alligator, put them on glass. This is the sloth with a sort of stainless steel camouflage pattern that's also at Longhouse. So I did a solo show at Longhouse with these images and Long Island.

Steve Miller

So some of the images you see earlier. But now outdoors, you know, the glass can on the right angle disappear, and they really kind of float in the landscape. This is an indoor piece, and in this case I actually took a rifle, shot the sloth through the heart of the X ray. That is so. That's one thing. Now, I gotta get out of here and find how to get to my desktop again, and we'll make this quick. Okay? So the idea of you know what is a sculpture? And obviously we learn from Duchamp with a bottle rack and a urinal and a snow shovel that you know sculpture can have these different lives. And I started looking at ways to get the image out in the world in a different kind of way, and perhaps a more commercial way.

Steve Miller

And that was working with surfboards and skate decks. And I also like the idea that if you're moving around on a skate deck, you're actually kind of, you know, moving back and forth like a the way a snake might move. So this is a pair, sir, of skate decks that I did for a company as a limited edition. And then I started doing unique versions, using the Amazon images is actually an X-ray of a pineapple and Amazon fur ferns from the jungle. Kind of a group that I saw as a trip tick on the left. You have banana flowers. Believe it or not. If you look at the very bottom of the board, you see these sort of Groupings of small bananas before the flower has been actually pollinated. That's what they look like in these small bunches.

Steve Miller

And we were going to into the Amazon, going to the river getting Amazon River fish. And I was doing this in Belen, which is the northern mouth of the Amazon, was lucky enough to get a fresh water stingray, which was illegally poached. But I met the poachers, and they had a huge warehouse of live this, and by the way, the poachers. I was taken to the poacher warehouse by the head of the aquarium in Beland. So the boundaries and all this is something interesting. The aquarium was closed because of funding possibilities problems. And then the head of the aquarium took me to the poacher.

Steve Miller

Warehouse, and I wanted one of the sting rays to X ray. They said no way. While I was there in Belam one died in captivity, so they brought it to me, and we X. Rayed it that evening. From the Zoo. In Vailam we had live juvenile alligators that we fed through an X-ray machine, and I thought this was how the sculpture project was surpord started. I was thinking, like people, stuff alligators and make them trophies. And while this is made of plastic, I thought it was an interesting concept to make a kind of less. You know, we didn't kill the animal in this case. So my version of the Eco trophy and you see surfboards and almost everyone's houses, you know, especially in Rio and in the coastal communities, surfing is just a major activity. So again, these are the fresh water stingrays from the Amazon River.

Steve Miller

And then on this board I actually put on the reverse of the board satellite maps of Amazon land clearing and the palm tree on the front. So it's sort of a double sided board and a trip tick that I made of Amazon piranas and piranhas are an important animal, because they clean all the garbage in the river, so they have a really important function to make the ecosystem. You know better for the other animal. You know the other fish, and The ecosystem and the water that needs a clean environment. So these guys are the bottom feeders, but they serve a major purpose. So the boards are all unique on the right. If you can see on the bottom, I guess this is number 12. And people, you know, some people have served these, but they ended up being, you know, put in.

Steve Miller

You know, regular environments by collectors, and hung as a work of art. And just a quick view of the process. You could now actually print these things digitally on cloth on fiberglass cloth, and this is at the shapers. Who's you know? We're laying down the cloth, figuring out how to put it on the board. And that's kind of the result when it's clean The again the river fish. And then finally I ended up doing some spending time at the large Hadron Collider in Geneva, Switzerland, and they have all these amazing chalkboards. So I thought, Wow, it really made sense to make chalkboards. And so these are the chalkboards. They're different.

Steve Miller

You know, images. Obviously the one in the center is a straight chalkboard, something I photographed. And then I started playing in Photoshop and animating them, and putting with different kinds of paintings this for the people on Long Island. It's X-ray of a lobster. So here's my lobster board, my only not well. Not my only non Amazon images, but my last book was called something called Surfing the Cosmos with Neil Degrasse Tyson, as some of you know, and so I put the Adrabida. I thought it was a perfect idea for Surfing the Cosmos, and as an image to put on a surfboard.

Steve Miller

And yeah, that's it. This image on the left I happen to, you know, one of the beauties of making these objects that you can put out into the world. This is actually I did a whole block at Bloomingdale's in New York, and this is just a detail of one of the windows. And on the right is the second page of the Surf Skate Book, or it could be the opening page. And this is from Rio de Janeiro. And I saw this on, you know, a pulldown dropdown gate from a business, presumably a surf shop. And so surf. Now, apocalypse later.

Steve Miller

Thank you.

Steve Miller

So moving along. But I guess a couple of quick questions. If there are any.

Yeah, if anyone has questions, just use the hand raise tool on the bottom. I believe it's under reactions.

I saw Michael's hand up. Michael, you want to jump in.

Yeah, hey, Steve? Wow! So I'm really blown away by the those first sculptures that you showed. Where did that number one from just a technical standpoint? Where did that come from? Was, that is that a creation all of your own? Or have

You've seen that done by other people? And then that was no, that was just. You know II really love the way X-rays look. And I was thinking about ways to show X-rays. And I'm still thinking about actually using light boxes. But you know, if you want something that's gonna be outdoors. That was the first one was a prototype. I just took a sheet of glass in a printer, new York Lamont, printed directly on the glass, and I wanted to see how long it would last.

Steve Miller

And that base original base was a sheet of steel, which was, you know, like as rusty, although I've had that outside in the front of my building in a garden, and it's lasted pretty much a decade so, but in order for the one at the Bro. Then I started laminating, printing them. And then laminating 2 sheets of glass together in order to keep the ink away from the weather, and then I was spending so much on the lamination of fabrication, and the first piece was steel. I started dropping them into bronze. But no, that I'd not seen that before. It's just a way to kind of get those X-rays literally out into the world. And in nature

It's brilliant. I and I love the I love the book idea about being able to change that out. How? How is that attached to the base.

So there's a they, there's they're just like the sculptures that you saw outdoors. It's a sheet of steel with 2 slots in it. One slot takes the image on the glass, then another slot is the thickness of a book, and that's on the other side, you know, in the foreground, and then you just slip the book in between the 2 sheets of glass, and you can change it as often as you like.

I'm impressed, Steve. That's beautifully presented. I'm glad you shared that today, cause I've never seen that of your work before. So that was way cool.

Thanks.

Suzanne. I see you have your hand up. I have my hand up because I just want to mention The new technology of UV printing which can be outdoors and can print on services such as glass. Plexiglass, metal, cardboard, etc. And at Sva we have a small UV printer that can print like from 13 to 30 inches. And we're doing a lot of experiments with it, with printing on bio materials and other sustainable kinds of surfaces. So I think that UV printing could add to your repertoire of outdoor printing mechanisms.

Well, full disclosure I work with Suzanne, and I've lectured at the Bio art course, and she started if she doesn't say more about it. A unique kind of study of. You know, another level of getting into nature and understanding. You know how things are formed, how things grow, and that printing that you're talking about. So we did print on that stainless steel, that camouflage version. And yeah, they're very dirt, and so far they've held up really well outdoors. I've got a bunch of pieces outdoors in my case. I am laminating them to keep the ink away From you know, the elements. But yeah, they've lasted pretty well. It's a great technology. And again, just to give a boost to Sva. They've got every technology to possibly imagine. And a really innovative study in the bio program. Thanks for mentioning that Suzette Renata.

Hi, Steve, thank you for a beautiful presentation. I'm a bibliophile as well, and I'm curious about the book projects where you have them encased in glass. Did any of those go out to any private individuals. And could I, for example, if I owned it, do that changing of the pages?

Yeah, the whole idea is to change it. I haven't sold a lot of them. You know. I do think I have one or 2 out in the world. I'm actually showing 2 and 2 different shows now one in East Hampton. Right now. It has a Mckay gallery and one on the north work at Pamela Willoughby Gallery. But what I love about. I mean, my work is full of contradictions, because, you know, that's the book by, you know, Al Gore, but we're cutting down trees to print the book, and you know I'm trying to use the book as a as a point of awareness, to keep your eye fresh by Br. Being able to change the pages and also metaphorically, keep fresh The discussion, you know, like you can flip the page and get another image. It could be wires. It could be an X ray of an animal could be an X-ray of a plant. But getting these kinds of things out into the world as a way to Increase the audience and the eyeballs that could have access, and to bring you as a viewer into the conversation by actively picking up the book and flipping through it.

There, there's an intimacy to books.

I'm I make so many crazy books. II make literally 100. So this the real story about the books was I was making these books they were taking, you know, months, if not years, to print, and people would look at the books, and they go like, oh, it's a book. It should be $100, right? And there's no way that you can come any kind of value system based on you holding that book and thinking it's worth 3 or $4,000, for example. So I said, Well, I wonder if I could put the book at a sculpture, you'd be buying the sculpture, not the book.

Steve Miller

So I started thinking, Okay, I can make these sculptures. Now you're getting steel. You're getting glass. And you're getting this active experience. And so it was really an artist way to increase the price point for the effort involved. But that's the hidden story behind. Invention.

Steve Miller

Alright, I think that's good. Thanks so much. And Suzanne, looking forward to hearing from you

Great! Well, that was a wonderful talk, Steve and as you know, I'm a very big fan of your work, and we share a lot of the same thoughts about raising consciousness about the looming crisis of the natural world. And I think that technology is one of our hand maidens that can help get this message across. So I guess I'll share my screen now. I mean, I could read it off of Wikipedia, or you could. Okay? So

According to Wikipedia Suzanne Anker is an American visual artist and theorist, and considered a pioneer in bio art. She's been working on the relationship between art and the biological sciences for more than 25 years. Her practice investigates the ways in which nature is being altered in the 20 first century. And concern with genetics, climate change, species, extinction and toxic degradation per more, calls attention to the beauty of life, and the necessity for enlightened thinking about Nature's tangled bank Anchor frequently assembles with predefined and found materials, botanical specimens, medical museum artifacts, laboratory apparatus, microscopic images, and geological specimens.

Colin Goldberg

So II met Susan. I think must have been some time in the nineties. Her husband is also very storied artist, Frank Gillette, who worked with Martian clue, and is one of the people that you'll read about in books about video art, working with video art since the 1960s. And I recently saw Frank's work at Moma, and the video art survey signals, which was pretty amazing, and actually got an opportunity to receive to stay with him for a week and teach him Photoshop back in the nineties, and it was quite a week. And I think that's when I met Suzanne for the first time, and I know that Suzanne also. Not exactly sure. I of your role at Sva, but I know you've been Deeply involved with the School of Visual Arts in Manhattan for a long time. So I'll pass the mic on to you, Suzanne, and you know, if you want to take it from there.

Thank you so much, Colin, I'm going to share my screen.

Oh, and one last thing about 2 presenters. They both were in the Oh Techspressionism, digital and beyond which was at Southampton Art Center, and had physical works there, and that was in the summer of 2,022.

Great. Well, I am the Chair of the Fine Arts Department at the School of Visual Arts. And I have been chair of that department since 2,005 before that I was chair of the Art History Department, at the School of Visual Arts for 5 years and my practice does involve innovation and the kinds of theoretical back stories to how we are citizens of the 20 first century. So, we're gonna talk a little bit about this series of work called remote sensing and sculpting without hands. If this was 50 years ago, and I told you I was making sculpture without touching it, you would send me to Bellevue Hospital and enroll me in a schizophrenic ward.

Suzanne Anker

But what has happened over the last number of years is that through data one can now transform codes of zeros and ones into 3 dimensional objects. And 3 dimensional objects have a very diverse nature since the 1970 S. With people like Roz and Kraus, who wrote about sculpture in the expanded field, which was a text about the differences in sculpture that could be a video or a land artwork, or something that hasn't been named yet, and in conjunction with that Jack Burnham, another theorist at the time. We're really investigating these seminal ideas. So sculpture has come a long way From what my teacher, Ed Reinhardt, has said Ed Reinhardt was a very mystical painter, and was a great influence on me during my studies with him. But he said that sculpture is what you backed into when you looked at a painting, so it sort of didn't have the same status as a painting did, because it was something you could walk around you could touch. And it's illusionistic capabilities were not as prevalent.

Suzanne Anker

But in the beginning of the 2,000 I decided that I was going to use the datasets from many of my photographs or found images to create sculpture, because my background, also my early work in the eighties and nineties was all about 3 dimensional objects, whether they were made out of bronze or sugar or steel wall, or plaster. It was about trying to create images that intersected nature with culture, because that was the spectrum which we are living in. A lot of that was adapted from reading Donna Haraway's work. And here, finally, in 20 first century I've been able to create these sculptures, which are quite unique and come from 2 dimensional sources. Here you can see a variety of them. I have made at least 48 of them actually probably more, and because they are made through rapid prototyping, which is like the creation of a sedimentary rock, the computer reads the data set and creates The image one layer at a time, at the same time applying the color. So what we have here are these micro landscapes, which look like aerial views.

Suzanne Anker

And even the term remote sensing is a term used by NASA, because it is a kind of satellite view or viewing system that can visit places that are too toxic or war-torn, or dangerous in some way to visit and get a kind of geological imprint. So these are little micro sculptures. They are about 4 by 4 by 2 inches. And what I have done recently, because the ink involved in digital sculpture is not archival, so they are now hand painted with acrylic inks as well as acrylic paint, and they are archival.

Suzanne Anker

But what I've learned from this process of machine learning, which is very much on the palette of the 20 first century, is that the machine will read data in new ways that you haven't thought of. So if we look at the bottom left hand side, we see a rubber ducky and a sunflower. This is kind of the idea of second nature, which, manufacturing copies the colors of the natural world to entice you to. Buy the piece. But if you look at the surrounding edge you'll see a white up and down kind of line which I had never intended to make, and this is essentially a glitch which I am trying to now use as part of my work. These are the originals. These are the original two-dimensional photographs. So there's a whole series of translations. I make a still life in a country dish.

Suzanne Anker

It is then photographed and even printed as a 2 dimensional digital print, and from there it is now mapped in such a way where 3 dimensional access is organized so that you can turn anything that's 2 dimensional into 3 dimensional space. Using this technology, which is called displacement, mapping. And here are several more of the vanitas in a Petri dish, and you know that vanitas is essentially a 18 century term about the inclination that everything that is live has an expiration date, and my vanitas combine The idea of the manufacturing world with the natural world, the nature of representation, the nature of nature. And in this process, as you can see here in this image, we go from a still life on the left.

Suzanne Anker

Which is an art historical genre. 2. A micro landscape which is a second art historical genre. So I don't think ever before these 2 genres in art history have been merged. And this these are examples of the ways in which new technologies can take from the history of art's database new ways of seeing the world. And here again are a number of the rapid prototype sculptures which have been shown all over the world and are part of museum collections. Now that I've created an archival basis for them. And they're these little worlds that combine a kind of geography with a botany. So we have the Anthropocene here being pictured in new ways.

Suzanne Anker

The piece on the upper left is a very interesting one for me, because if you look closely at the left hand side you will see a projection of a butterfly, little hard to recognize, unless you see it in person. But you see that the butterfly wings have been extruded to create a 3 dimensional wing rapid prototyping is going to be or is already the next frontier. There will be airplanes made by this method there will be homes that are made by this method and I think it is part of the way to reduce the carbon footprint in the world.

Suzanne Anker

The first exhibition of this combination was at the Parish Museum in Watermel in 2,016 and I had 24 of the prints with 24, the rapid prototype sculptures. And the viewers were invited to kind of match up the 3D. Version with the 2D. Version, which was not that easy, but it became a game, and people really were interactive in trying to see the differences with the same data in various dimensions. And here is a close up the sculptures were also placed on little glass vessels, which function as different kinds of optical devices.

Suzanne Anker

Further distorting what can be seen through glass early microscopes operated this way, which water was put in a glass to enlarge or reduce what was being seen. And then some of my early genetic work glass vessels were also employed. Here's a close up where you can see the distortion in the central image, and you can also see the irregularity of the perimeters of the sculpture which I learned from the machine. So as we make the machine, the machine makes us.

Suzanne Anker

This is a zinnia flower that has been cut down, and you know now is almost looking like a labyrinth. Going on from there in 2,019, I was invited to do a solo show at the Everson Museum, which was an opportunity for me to upscale everything, because not only does nature grow, but ideas Bro as well. So rather than 24 small vanitas pieces I did 48 large vanity toss pieces, and the rapid prototype sculpture were included in this large vitrine that you see in the center, which is called a frank case. And here is another image. As you can see, the name of the show is 1.5°C, which is the tipping point for the destruction of living things. We see here now through these glass vessels. We see part of the wall works which are again distorted, showing us alternative views of what is available optically.

Suzanne Anker

And if you think that was sort of the last time I did this I got a call from the Beijing art and technology biennial. We're doing an exhibition called synthetic Ecology. And not only did they want all 48 of the vanitas and the remote sensing. But they wanted everything I could give them. So I sent them the files. And they decided that they would make 85 of these vanitas rather than using the frank case. They constructed a plexiglass pedestals, and I use plexiglass a lot because it disappears like what Steve Miller said about printing line glass and having the glass disappear.

Suzanne Anker

So what you see here finally, in 2022 is a full realization of this idea that started in 2,016, in which we now see this concept of an environment that is related to the spectrum of the man made, and the natural as being one and the same thing. And this was at Cube, a new big space in Beijing. So thank you very much.

Okay, I'm back. Thanks so much, Suzanne. So we have some time for some questions. By.

Suzanne wants to call them, or I see Steve Miller has a question.

Yeah, thanks, Suzanne. II guess when you were doing the is, I guess, a technical question. But you said you were scanning the photos on a 3 dimensional axis to get the rabbit prototype projection of that axis.

I wasn't scanning them. I was using a 3D. Program to create a 3 dimensional axis. I had done this with my Rossac pieces, which I showed at Collins Tech, Preston Show in Southampton. Where I took an ink block from Herman Washacks psychology test and turned them into 3 dimensional objects. So you have to create a 3D access using a 3D program. And then the 3D program can be manipulated as to the height The 3D protrusions, and very much like looking at a painting.

Suzanne Anker

The 3D program reads the colors as if dark colors recede, and light colors come forward so that it has a visual apparatus that is self in machine learning.

Okay? So I mean, I really, I did not know that as well as I know you. So that was interesting. II find it really effective when you did that one slide, or you know, on your presentation of the image with the object that direct relationship I find really exciting. So thank you.

Well, thank thank you for asking. And this technology is used in science and medicine as well as surveillance and politics. Because, you know, you can see things in new ways when they have a 3 dimensional kind of form. I see we have a few more questions here, Cynthia.

Suzanne Anker

I can't hear you, Cynthia.

Thank you for an extraordinary presentation, Suzanne. I'm fascinated with your micro landscapes, and I'm also very interested in what Steve was discussing, that you went from 2D. To 3D. Using displacement mapping. And it's and you said it's out there in the world. But when it comes to science, when it comes to medicine, will it ever be out there in the world for artists?

Yes, and it is out there in the world for artists. But most artists I know. Are not quite versatile with 3D printing. So there are our classes or courses that are available where you could learn these programs The same way you would learn Photoshop, you would learn a 3D. Program like rhino or Maya, etc. And there are places including Sva that have courses. In this. The technology of the machine itself is expensive. So it's not something you would do at home to get the kind of detail that I have. There are cheaper versions of these, but those some of those are in plastic.

Suzanne Anker

And I don't work with plastic. This is plaster and a kind of resin, and then archival paint on top of it, so that they are pretty much biodegradable.

I think the title Synthetic Synthetic Ecology is also fascinating the idea, and Steve raised it a little earlier about the juxtaposition in the early part of the presentation of the man made, and the natural, and that just creates so many reverberations. It's like a rock in a lake.

It's true. And now we, we even have rocks that are in e encrusted in plastic that one can find on the beach, because the idea of what is nature? Is not even a question any more, that we are so entangled in the cultures of the man made and the origins of living matter. That there's no separating them out. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Okay, we have. Michael.

Wow, Suzanne, brilliant, totally totally awesome presentation. I'm fascinated with the way in which these are created, and a lot of these I see so many similarities, and I'm sure Steve will appreciate where I'm coming from to the micro scale of quantum mechanics and looking at The mathematics involved. And I was curious, and I if I missed this. I apologize. But we're all of these created from something that was known ahead of time. Or were these created? And you didn't know how they were gonna end up. And that's a curiosity for me is looking at artificial life where you could start with a premise, and it can go in a number of different directions. You could create various iterations, and I was just curious whether or not that's something that you looked at, or if I missed that. And I apologize.

Okay, because I actually constructed these little landscapes in Petri dishes where I knew what the items were. I would put, say, a sunflower with a rubber ducky. But this surprise was the edge of the sculpture. Which was a kind of glitch in the data which I think teaches us more about how we can extend our ecstatic experience by machine learning. And I have been trying to now, use that in some newer pieces. And it's very difficult to actually repeat. So I am working with my collaborator. And we're trying to make that happen at will.

Suzanne Anker

Okay.

So I have. I do have one personal question. If I were interested to find out more, is there a way to contact you? Just to find out some more extensive information.

App. Absolutely. Where are you located? Oh, you're in Phoenix. Okay. I know. That the University of Arizona actually has a number of bio art

Kinds of oh.

Things going on there. They're connected to Singapore University as well. So it look and see what they have. But you're welcome to contact me anytime. Colin has my email or visit my website. And we can talk more about this. Okay. Now we're gonna get I don't wanna mispronounce your name Melvika.

Yeah. Hi, thank you for the beautiful presentation. My question is that when you are developing, this is the height of the sculptures in your control. Or if scores.

Anyhow? Yes, the height is in my control, and I have tried different heights. If it's too high, it's becomes too fragile. If it's too low, then it doesn't really address the issue of geography. Okay, it looks more like a tile. And so you set the standard Of what height you want, and I have found the height that is adequate, so that the vulnerability and the aesthetics are in harmony.

Okay? And but I can see different variations of in one only different variations out there of the height. So that is happening because of your color. What you stalking earlier, that is happening because of the color. And yeah, and the machine is unpredictable to some degree. You know.

The way it reads data, we can't ask it a question, and or tell it that it should be a little lower, we would have to change the numerical values. So there's some trial and error involved in this. But fortunately my collaborators and expert. So we have been able to work this out. I'm now trying a new set of work which is rectangular. To see if that could match up with a new series of collages that I have made about climate change called after Eden. So I'm working on that because I like to see the relationship between the 2D and the 3D. Because it gives you more information about what you don't know.

And what about the color application you are doing? I mean, it's a hand application.

The color application is follows The printed color, except it now is hand put on top of The printed color with acrylic inks and paints.

Thank you so much for that. Thank you. Okay, I have some more, Lee.

Yes, when I was looking at your Petri dish sculptures. I flashed back to my childhood when I was given. And forgive me. I can't recall what this stuff was called it looked like coral. You would organize it in water, and it would grow, and it would mimic Coral.

I remember those toys. I had some of those as well, and they were very magical. I don't know why I can't get you up here, but I'll try 1 s View speaker. Not there. You are. Okay. Yeah. It was like a clam shell, and you put it in water, and all of a sudden some flower would emerge on a string. Etc. I've also done a lot of work with coral and ceramics as well. But that's a very handmade process. For me, I choose a medium that best can be utilized with the concept involved, and sometimes starting with a concept and then trying to find the visual images, takes a long time. And I think that you know different artists work in different ways and trying to visualize climate change.

Suzanne Anker

And there are a lot of images on my website about that in which I packed a number of seasons together at the same time. So that I began calling those mono seasons which we are experiencing in the world today.

One of the things that fascinated me about that stuff, even though I was very young, was that different colors reacted differently in terms of the shapes they would take and how long they would last. And also the strength of the colour itself. The colors, different colors would fade at a different rate than other colors would fade. The amount of Organic looking detail would differ greatly from one color to another.

And that is why they're all hand painted now because of the fading, and the companies who make the machines have not yet developed Archival coloring systems, and which puts artists at a disadvantage, you know, for, say, for an architect who's gonna make a presentation or an engineer, it doesn't matter, because it's a throw away. But for an artist it is not a throw away. It is something that enters into the database Of art history in that way. And where are you located? I'm sorry. Where are you located?

I'm one and White Salmon Washington.

Okay, I just have a book coming out. Call, what color is your salmon? Okay, hey, be? And it's all about dying farm salmon. So look for that. Because even in Washington. There's a lot of problems with the water being too warm for the salmon eggs to procreate. So this is sort of another one of my interest.

Well, one of the ways I controlled that problem as a child was, I melted some of my crayons down and use the liquid colored wax. That's great great. I think we have another question here with veranda.

Verneda Bernada. I'm sorry. No worries first. Thank you very much for the very thought provoking presentations that both you and Steve Gifted us today. And in listening to your presentation. I thought that basically we had come in many ways philosophically full circle to what Colin had initially presented when introducing to Day's session. In that he mentioned that text. Expressionism is a social sculpture. And he explained the ways in which he's thought that way. And in looking at your work and listening to how the images evolved. I am. Brought to consider that it is a in many ways a parable of how valuable aesthetically valuable different perspectives are. So it's showing us on a micro micro level what we should know.

Verneda Lights

The ticks and other aspects of our daily lives. How people tend to cling to one way of seeing things. But there is practical and aesthetic value to how things are assembled and presented from different perspectives. And I think it helps in problem solving and things such as that. So I wanted to know whether or not you see your work in this way as well? Or do you feel that it is more just relevant to the artistic realm?

Yeah, I think, I think that diversity of knowledge production is what will help eradicate some of the long standing problems that we face today. And because stereotypes and Cliche thinking is what has driven us into the inequalities of the day. So by opening up these possibilities in which technology can even become more democratic in the sense. Here I am speaking to a bunch of people in different places. In the United States or other countries where I couldn't have this dialogue unless there was this internet and digital technologies. I'm also very interested in a new project that I'm working on. I just started working on it. And I learned this from some of my African American students.

Suzanne Anker

Who told me about the scenes that their slave ancestors brought over with them, such as Okra, which was never part of the American Diet. Or even the Thanksgiving. Sweet potato is a total lie, because we never had sweet potatoes in North America. So I'm working on a project about decolonizing my garden and finding out what the origins are Of these plants, to give them wider perspective, and to even look at weeds, or invasive as sort of possible useful entities that we can appreciate. So this question of diversity of knowledge is part of my practice in the statics.

Yes. Thank you very much for that response. Now, regarding the glitch that you spoke of in the in your end product that you wanted to explore further as to how the machine put it that way. I was thinking, If you had access of whether or not having access to time lapse a time-lapse analysis.

That's a very good idea. I'm not sure if we do. But I'm going to ask The person I work with. Because he may know how to capture that activity if it is possible. Yes, that'll give me your answer, I think. Yes, yes, and what?

Thank you. One more thing. When you mentioned about the decolonizing your garden? I live in South Carolina. I'm gala okay. And so my ancestors were the ones who were in brought over forcefully from West Africa. Into the South Carolina little country. Rich extends well, basically, the gulla country go goes from Greenville, North Carolina, to Jacksonville, Florida, and the agriculturalists who were among the enslaved. We're the ones who Planned and maintained the entire rice-producing process which made the United States, of course, very wealthy. And yes, and now that we no longer had this rice production as part of our major economic thrust in the low country. People are starting to look at The basic architecture that was laid out for the rice plantations, in looking at the mathematics and the Geological sensitivity with which it was created, and is becoming a part of The aesthetic presentation of the low country now as well. So it's like a great Go ahead, great! And you know the same is true.

Had another student who was just in a show at the Metropolitan Museum of Art about black potters, and because there was not only rice crops and cotton crops but there was a whole pottery industry that was started by slave owners. And these and these huge pots ended up recently at the Pet Metropolitan Museum of Art. Good! They were so a lot of this unknown history. It really needs to come to the surface because it is part of what made America. America and credit should be given where credit is due.

Yes, thank you. Thank you. Okay, Colin.

Thank you. So, Suzanne, I'm just gonna make a real quick question, because I think after this we just should jump to the Siberiana. So it gets in the recording but I was just wondering, do you ever take. Do you ever refotograph these pieces from the top? So you can compare. You know, the extruded version with the original photograph that it's based on? I'd be interested to see, you know, side by side, like almost like a diptych. I think that would be pretty interesting from the top.

Because I make certificates of authenticity, and that's how I archive them. But they do not look exactly like The 2D versions. You could see that they're still 3 dimensional, and you might have a hint of a butterfly wing and an outline, but some of them are really difficult to match up.

Umhm. Well, I think that would make it interesting, and I remember seeing this whole body of work in your studio when I went over to look at the Rorschach pieces, and I had no idea that this was the process. That they were. They were based on. I really looked at them. I saw somebody. I think it was Lee in the chat said it reminded him of the grow, your own crystal kits, and that's what I had thought actually where they were somehow related to Crystalline growth or something like that. I mean, they really look like still ages in some way. And then you know, to see that there are these extrusions or sort of depth maps of these photographs is really fascinating. So you know, I really appreciate the both presentations. They were really interesting and enlightening. And you know, I just like to thank both you and Steve for

For joining us today. So yeah, very, very interesting as well.

Absolutely. Unfortunately, I have to go teach my class so have to leave everyone. But it was very nice to meet everyone, and I will come back and listen to Siberia at another time. Thank you.

So, Renata, do you want to just jump in and I don't know if Steven, or you want to talk a little bit about Suburiana and the sort of a next steps. I guess you're gonna talk a little bit about. You're muted, Renato.

Before that. Is there going to be time for Jen to present her sculpture? And then I don't know how the recording works. But could Michael?

Oh. I lost you there.

Oh, I'm just inquiring about how recording works.

Oh, well, I mean, it's just basically, you know, it's rolling now, and it I mean, we can make this longer than an hour and a half if you think it's worthwhile. You know, is this is the Siberiana discussion. Gonna be sort of a QA.

That's right. Yeah, it's going to be

Is. Is there? Is there any way to end the Salam. You know, and then start back up again and do a separate recording just for Siberiana that way.

That's a really good idea. Yeah, what do I do? That? You know I'm unfortunately not going to be able to stay too long, because I have to run out and pick up my daughter from elementary school pretty soon. But I could definitely throw host to one of you guys once we restart the recording, and I believe well, actually, maybe, whoever it is, that's the host could initiate the recording. Just so, I know, because I'm not 100. Sure if I start the recording, and if a Co. Host could stop it but At any rate, that's a really good suggestion. So why don't we do that, and we could move on to the remaining presenters. On this topic of sculpture. So, Jan, did you want to go?

Yeah, sure, I'll go. It's just a quick thing. And do you want to do a quick intro? Just so, people know, screen, share. So let me try and screen. Share my desktop. Okay. Share Alright. And I have to move this box.

Oh. Okay.

Bear with me a second.

Jan Swinburne

Oh. There we go. Okay. So those of you who know my practice. Can you see that? Okay? Okay, I've been working on these sculptures that are based on sound. And it's interesting today that you know the presenter talked about the depth. This is Cnc processing. So it's also machine learning based. So what I've done this is for those of you who don't know is my voice. Captured and carved and hand worked and the word that I'm saying is time. And this one is the same word, but a different wave form.

Jan Swinburne

And so I decided to do an artist multiple. And I'm interested in sort of how The voice, the power of the voice, and everything like that. So these are the designs that I work from. And essentially, my signature is my voice in these, and they both say time. It's loosely based on. Apparently James Joyce was said to say, quoted as saying, Time is, time was and is no more. And I really like the idea of how this translated into you know, an artist multiple as a coin. And these are nickel Plated brass and they come in.

Jan Swinburne

They're an inch in diameter and a little bit. But the thickness of a looney for those of us, you who know the Canadian dollar and I've developed a card as well. That comes with this that reflects that. And so it's an open edition. And I just thought there were a lot of interesting ideas behind this that go further than like simple things like money talks and all those illusions. But also thinking about equity and being able to make something that's, you know, financially ex accessible as well. But Alludes to all the themes around the voice. The power of the voice, the power of money. And I wrote an essay years ago in a book called Money Value Art, and I was really interested to sort of revisit that theme. So that's what I had to tell you today. I just wanted to keep that short. And, Jen, are these available for sale to us? Yes, they are. 15. If you're in Canada, Canadian dollars or 15 Usd outside of Canada. Is what I'm making them available for. And you can just get in touch with me through my website if you're interested in them. And they come in this little package.

Jan Swinburne

And I can show you a little bit what actual coin is. I forgive my tremor, but it's like it's hard to see. So anyways, Yeah, I thought there was. It's an interest more of a concept project. So but I call. I'm calling it pocket sculpture, because I don't really think of it in terms of A coin per se. It's more token, and even that with the language involved, you know, tokenism and speech. And there's just lots of associations that happen there. So Anyways, that's been my project for the last little while, and I was wanted to bring it to expressionism first.

Jan Swinburne

A lot of the processes I use in processing my voice are what were discussed today. And that's really interesting stuff to me. So thanks.

So do we have any questions for Jan.

Colin Goldberg

Alright. Well, I guess what we could do is, you know, bring this recording to a close, and we could start recording a new session up, Karen, do you have a question?

Well. I have a presentation. Oh, sorry. But right, no, that's okay. I just didn't know where to fit it. But maybe right now is a good time, because Renata asked me to show what I did on Mozilla hubs for myself.

And I put it on this recording. And then, so as not to confuse the Siberiana talk. That sounds good. Yeah, absolutely. Now, yeah, we started, you know, after 12. So there's definitely time, and there's a really no hard and fast rule for this, so go as fast as I can. But thanks for reminding me.

Welcome. I just have to get to the right one here. There's so much up on my screen.

I assume you can see 3D.

Good.

Now. The question always is, oh, come on. Zoom gets in the way of the play button. There we go! So you all know. Normally I do. Fine art animation. But when Colin brought up the topic of sculpture. It kind of threw me back to my 1980 S. Model building phase, where I was building commercial models in order to keep the lights on. So I've been doing models for a long time. This is a piece I did for a show. You'll see in a few seconds, and these are a few samples of the commercial models we used to build with designers. It was pre digital. So this is what the designers would take to meetings.

Karen LaFleur

And from really all full decade of the 1980s. This is really when you know, ours could make good money at this, and then it went digital. This one here is another one done with the same designer. This was for a proposal for a reebok store at Fanual Hall in Boston.

Karen LaFleur

This is a model in the actual forty-foot toy train we had to build for a toy store. It's all laminate on the train not painted. This is the model and the actual train subway car. We built that crash through the wolf or strawberry records in downtown crossing in Boston. It was their room to sell all the tickets for concerts at the time in the same floor, right across the street from that train. They wanted a an Oldies diner. So we had to build this diner, and my zoom is kind of in the middle. But if you look on this Diner and you see the word oldies through the window. There should be like little red door back there. That's a 5 by 7 elevator, and this was on the fourth floor. So everything the subway car, and the diner had to fit into that 5 by 7 elevator. So these were actually jigsaw puzzles that were on our dinner table. The family would try to figure out how to get into a 5 by 7 inch box for a year.

Karen LaFleur

This is the other project you've seen before the play time and the making project. I worked for 3 and a half years as producer and artist along with the other artists. This is the model. It's about 4, almost 5 feet long. It's now in the Wisconsin Racine Museum of Art. And there's the actual installation in the Museum. Why am I showing you this because Tommy and Renata and Steve and Michael decided we're going to have so Siberiana, and you threw me right back to my model-making days, where I could make things really, really tiny. The plane on the left is only get a one inch wingspan.

Karen LaFleur

The one on the right has got a 20 inch wingspan. And then you gave me hubs. So what I did was play till I could almost break the thing. And this is what I came up with is a 3D village with 3 galleries and a full cinema. This I've built for my own sake, so I put all the bells and whistles in that I could. And this is my trying to track for you on a laptop. So sorry for the little jerkiness here. It has these 3 different levels, because the cinema has to go down with the seating slant. There are 3 greenhouses across the back.

Karen LaFleur

There's your ramp going through. You'll see different changes in these like those columns. So the street signs later get replaced with actual light posts. There's from overhead.

Karen LaFleur

There's the walkable area I found out with mozola hubs is to keep the walkable area just where you want to be, because otherwise it uses up a lot of memory. So you take the walkable areas off the trees and places like roofs of houses that you don't want your avatars to go. This is looking up at the mural, a circle mural in the main gallery.

Karen LaFleur

Now you're inside the cinema on the cinema. I had a problem because the cinema box that I use from Sketch Fab. You can't get through the wall. You can see through the wall, but you can't get through the wall. So I had to Narrow one dimension of the box and then bring in the floor plate so the avatars could come into the room. So there I am, going through the studs of the wall into the theatre. And then it's going to swing back again. I hope this is working okay on Zoom, because I know Zoom doesn't do animation. Well.

No, this works. It's working very well, oh, good, good!

And there's from the other point of view the exit doors is I'm going to slide you right up the stairs as an avatar right into the theatre, stop at the doorway, and then the avatar can go right up to the edge and be in the cinema. This is going to play for a little under a minute like 40 s, but I think it's going to swing you around eventually and take you out and up the stairs to the main gallery. So like I said, the exit door from Sketch Fab. You can't go through them. So I had to leave these openings. So there's all kinds of different, interesting spatial challenges on building this

That I found interesting compared to doing a manual model

Because you're literally walking inside a model. Versus building it from the outside, looking in. So then I'm going to go upstairs.

Karen LaFleur

I'm gonna swing you around into the main gallery now in the main gallery. There's artwork on both walls, and one piece of large artwork in each of the greenhouses hanging off the back, but also in each one of the galleries there's one animation. And this is something I'm having trouble with Siberiana getting the animations in. So I would love to be in on that discussion, doing my own. I uploaded directly to Mozilla Hub's server, so I have no trouble. The second gallery to the right of the main gallery right there. One of these is an animation. And there we go.

Karen LaFleur

I'm going to bring you right in.

Karen LaFleur

Getting the numbers on the wall was not easy. I couldn't see them. It took a lot of experimentation. But it gives you an idea. Quick run through of the galleries.

Karen LaFleur

Oops went the wrong way. Sorry, guys. This is the other gallery to the left of the main gallery.

Karen LaFleur

And I don't think I have an animation slide, but the yellow piece in the center of the lower wall is an animation. That's when you get inside the greenhouse. That's what it looks like.

And the animation gifs, or are they movies

There? Actually, my Mo. VMP, 3 s, that I uploaded to. Oh, MP, 4, I think. So. Yeah, really, really small with handbrake and stuff. And yeah, yeah, real tiny. But that's directly loading into my account. That's easy. It's the URL. And I'm having trouble that link. So there it is, overview. And I built it inside this box. And that's my world guys. So I'm going to stop sharing here. I can cursor to get up there.

Escape.

Yeah, there we go.

Karen LaFleur

So hopefully, that's an introduction to the hubbs, Mozilla, world discussion that's coming up next in the recording next recording.

Awesome thanks so much. Karen. Yeah. Now, I'm like. Wow, you know, I don't know I could. I haven't even really started on mine yet, to be honest. So, Siberiana, because I think I'd crash the system. It's pretty memory heavy. I just built it to explore. What can

The application do? How far can it go?

Very interesting now, I was thinking, you know we could actually just keep this recording going that way. People don't have to go somewhere else to find The session. I mean, that might even be better. Otherwise we're gonna have to post it somewhere other than the salon page. I mean, it could live on the Siberian page to. That's another option where you know the form lives to submit your URL and stuff renata like W. What do you think would be? I like. I like the idea of attaching

Our QA. To this recording, if that's feasible, and then it can go on the Siberiana page as well as the salon. YouTube.

Okay, would you be comfortable? Being the host like if I gave you host capability to try to be able to stop the recording? I'm I just googled it, and it says Host and Co. Host should be able to stop a recording in progress.

So I might have to. I might have to leave before the conversation is done. Okay, it would you be able to ask Michael that question because I might have to jump out?

Okay, Michael, would you be able to hang and admit. Okay, and I, yeah, actually, you are a host on the zoom account to our you know, you know. So I'm gonna make you host, and then just let me know if you see a stop button where the recording icon is on the top left. Let's see. Price.

See?

Okay? Oh, snow. Okay. Along the bottom. I have pause. Stop recording.

Okay? So that should be that should be good. And then, yeah, that way, you know. Like, if people have a question, we could just direct them to Salon 77, and even put a you know, timestamp reference, or whatever cool, awesome. So yeah. You guys sort of take it from there.

I just wanted to say I was lucky enough to see Karen's world and the resolution on her artworks is not only really great, but if you angle your body so that you're standing close to the art and looking up at it, there's recession into space that is so clear and so good. I was really enthralled. So I just want to say that Siberiana is an example of the Techspressionism community in cyberspace. And the town square is a place to meet and exchange ideas. And that there's a kind of inclusivity to Techspressionism that you can see a representation of in the concept of a town square and a place for dialogue among artists from all over the world. And we? We were lucky. We had about 75 artists apply, and we have them from countries all over the globe.

Renata Janiszewska

Tommy couldn't be here, unfortunately, today to answer technical questions about Mozilla Hubs. But Michael is our resident, Guru. So I'm gonna pass it to him.

But

Thanks, Renata. I'm not sure exactly how we could be most useful to everybody. So I guess right now let's get some questions asked, so I just saw Sahar put her hand up so. What would you like to ask? Sahar?

Hi! Everyone! Hi, Michael! Thanks. I wanted to ask, how can we upload videos to hubs first of all, and then I was not able to. I didn't receive the templates, link. So I created a new room just like what Karen did. And can I use? Yeah, I published it to Web first and then, it didn't look like what I was expecting. So I created another room. And should we like, should our space be like a closed area? Or can it be open? And how it will be linked to Siberian main hall because I didn't see the hall.

Okay. We have a form. That we're asking all the artists to fill out and in that form. We're looking for the URL that spoke generates or I guess through that. Through that hubs what that address is, and we need that because we have a database that's going to connect to each artists room or gallery, you know. However, you wanna think of it. And then that'll get put into and connect through the doors that are in that in the main area. So if you don't have that form

I guess either Renata or Tommy will need to get that to you, and if anybody else is missing, I think it's at, it's we're not. It's the form that I posted. Right? So it's okay. Expressionism.com slash Siberiana, which I'm gonna put in the chat. But you could also get there quickly by going to the homepage. The Techspressionismcom homepage and clicking on the Siberian banner. And I added the form there and then that those responses should go directly to the team. Awesome. Thanks, Colin. I forgot you had done that. So yeah, awesome.

And then and then the other thing that we need from everybody is an image that's gonna go on to the door that's in that public space, that then they, the person who wants to go visit you kind of clicks on so again that's formatted in a portrait portrait orientation. Now. In regards to your question, Sahar, about if it needs to be closed or open. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by open like. There's no or

Like. Karen has her room inside the box a closed box, but I created like an open space like a forest.

Okay, but I'm assuming there's like a bounding box around the edge of the forest.

No.

So they could, they could just keep wandering out beyond the edge of the forest. I don't know how. Yeah, I don't know how problematic that is, for the hub engine overall and also just for the end user, we, we, we need the doorway to go. There needs to be the mechanism that the person can click on to get back to the main central area. So if you're creating your own space, you need to have a link that goes back to the main area. Otherwise there's no way for somebody to go to your space and then get back into into the town square.

Michael Price

Does that make that make sense. Right? Okay.

II think the idea of having a close boundary is good. I've had people get lost inside their own room. A guy yesterday was stuck inside a gigantic stone that he had installed in his room, and I had to fly him out of there. So, having a boundary, would probably be helpful. Also, with regard to the video question. I think we have to talk maybe a little bit about the file size. The video I've uploaded successfully is small. It's short and it doesn't have sound.

Renata Janiszewska

Karen might be able to speak.

So there, there's a couple. There's a couple of issues with video, file size may be may be an issue that. But the other thing and the video that I have successfully playing Renata has both sound and image. So. Because I have not been able to find a lot of the technical stuff behind the scenes for Hubs and spoke, I'm going. This is anecdotal just to me. But I managed to host A number of videos that I've been able to post successfully From YouTube and using my link from there into my space.

Michael Price

And it does stay consistent. The challenge is going through there. Sometimes it takes a little time for it to completely load, and that may be an issue that people are running into. I don't know.

I have a question about the very beginning of uploading. What I'm doing is going to the menu on the right, where it has image image image image. And then there's a video option. And I'm choosing. That

Is that the correct way? That's fine. You can do that. You could also go to the menu at the bottom of the screen and add, you know, just click on picture or click on video, and then you get to place it where you want it's The video Widget or the image widget are, you know, part of the spoke. Set of things that you can do. Did W. Did I forget anything else that you? Asked Sahar.

I Oh, I use. I tried YouTube link, but it did not work, and I was wondering, how should we upload we videos or in which sites website.

I. Because I do have a YouTube channel, I used YouTube, and that is working for me. I don't know if anybody else has done video successfully in another way. So this, again, is my limit in knowing what works behind the scenes. So that's why I'm saying this is only anecdotal information. I know somebody has tried Vimeo, and that hasn't worked, and I don't know what the issue is. But II don't have a Vimeo channel. I've not tried playing with that. So I that part I don't know.

Michael Price

But I know that I know that YouTube can work because I've got it working in my space.

Karen, can you speak to that?

Just took me half an hour to find my raised hand. Yes, I think. And that's going back 3 or 4 weeks. So the memory is not that good? I think my files were like 8 or 10 makes or let in that range very low. I put my animations very short seconds. You know, that would be on a like a loop, and then I put them into handbrake. And I got them down, down, down, as far as I could go, because it seems like Granada was saying once they're in Mazola hubs. If you get up close to them. There's this strange sense of 3D that happens to the animations. It's almost a little bit of depth relief in them. So, whatever their player is, is kind of making up for the small size that you wouldn't play on your computer screen. I don't know if that makes sense.

Karen LaFleur

We can get it down small.

What about gifts?

Yeah. Yeah, that was my question.

Yeah, what is what about gives?

What was the question, what about gifts. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. I don't know if that's I don't know if that is readable by the engine. I'm not positive.

What I've been doing is, I've just been going to ChatGPT or Google, and just asking those questions. And it'll come back with the specs.

Okay? Well, can canber, which I don't use often. Has a way where you can convert a gift to an Mp for. You can convert a gift to a video. You know very quickly. So that should save sometime.

Verneda Lights

Sahara, we able to answer all of your questions. Yes, thanks, and I was able to upload gifts

3 major.com. But the Urls, as image or video didn't work in hops. So I don't know how to upload. Ca, can you say that again? You upload them to Img. I uploaded gifts in a major.com e major.com. And that's the. I am sure. Yeah, yes. And so but I don't know how to link it to a hubs. I use both image and video assets, but it didn't work.

I've successfully used. IMGU. R. What I do is I upload the image and I make it full screen on the site on IMGU. R. And then I right click on it and copy the address. And that's worked for me for video and image. And it's working. It's free, and it's super easy to upload to it. Imgru are. It's really quick to make an account, and it's a very responsive thing is that does that help?

Yes, it helps for images, but not the gift.

Well, II haven't tried one, but I will, and I'll get back to you, Sahar.

What's the URL, or the site you're talking about, Renata?

It's IMGU. R.com. It's a free hosting site for your images on the web

Cause I couldn't get any of my links to work. I couldn't get YouTube to work. I couldn't get I was trying to link them to my website. That wouldn't work. So

Yeah, Tommy mentioned Img, you are a while back, and I'm sorry that we didn't promote it or publicize it more. But it's really, really user, friendly. Okay, I'll give it a try. It does work.

I put the I. Mg.

II have a question comment. I have no problem with, you know, getting a URL and the rest of it. My problem is with the template itself. I had loaded up some images, and nothing showed in my assets. I also lost a wall in my room I also tried to place images on the wall, and sometimes they disappeared, depending on if I pushed it too far or not. And so that is my issue. And then, when I published it, it looked different The way things had been set up looked different.

Okay, so you are pointing out some of the challenges of working in an interface. So do we? Th, this is. This is a this is a question that if we need a little bit of a tutorial, I'm fine doing that. So I don't know if that's an issue other people are running into as well. But if we, if we need to go over that, I'm perfectly fine. Doing a short tutorial on that.

Well, I, for one, would be very happy. I know Susan Detroy is also interested.

There may be other people out there that might want to tell you. I don't know. Yeah. Is anybody else in the same boat in terms of just working with the interface? I'm sure I'll be in the same boat, because I don't think technology likes me very much, so I think I'll be if you want me to do that, and I can. I can walk you through some of that.

Sure.

Let me.

Michael Price

Let me bring up, spoke first, and then I'll share my screen.

Michael Price

So I'm going to.

Michael Price

What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna show you my current. Version of my space that I've been working on. I'm nearly done with it. It's I consider it pretty simple, so alright, so let me.

Michael Price

Can everybody see my screen?

Yes.

Alright.

Michael Price

Alright! So.

Michael Price

So here, here's the here's the thing that's challenging. Can you see over here? I clicked on. I clicked on this black and white piece of art. And you can see the arrows. I don't like to use the arrows very much other than for gross placement. The real trick is in using the numbers that deal with position, rotation, and scale. And Cynthia, have you played with those at all? Are you familiar with that part of the interface? I did try a little bit of that.

Michael Price

Okay, so. Th, the trick is you wanna like for things with the walls? The big thing for me is if I click, if I click on the wall itself. I can see the positioning of the X and the Y and the Z. And what I want to do is I'll write those numbers down if I need to. And I'm suggesting. Perhaps you know, looking at that and recording those numbers, first, because then, when I click on the artwork. I can see comparatively where this is. And typically what I'm either dealing with is the X or the Z, because the Y is the up and the down. How high, vertically, or how low, vertically, something is.

Michael Price

But depending on the depending on which wall orientation you're looking at, trying to get close to the X or a X or the z component depending on which side you're on of the 4 walls. And if you get too close. For instance, if I click if I click on the arrow here and you look at the number. What I'm changing is the X number here. Here. It's at 0, minus 5.5, Minus one 1.5 minus 2. Now, all of a sudden it disappears. That's because it's behind the wall. From my perspective.

Michael Price

I bring it back. Now it's floating outside the wall. If I orient over here I can see that it's sticking out. You know. I'm looking at the edge. There. It's kind of sticking out away from the wall. This painting here, the X is minus 1.7. This is minus 1.5. So it's actually out into the room a little bit further. So if I click on the X. And I use my keyboard if I go 1.6, it's a little closer, 1.7 minus 1.7. It's closer, minus 1.8. It's almost flush against the wall, minus 1.9. It's behind the wall.

Michael Price

So I tend not to be like right next to the wall. I'll come out just slightly a little bit further. So that it looks like it's on the wall. But if somebody steps away they're not going to get that fuzzy thing where, if it's right, flush against the wall, the rendering engine doesn't know whether to rent, to render the wall in front or the image. And so you get you get this kind of tessellation. Sort of weird look going on. Is this helping at all?

Michael Price

And then and then for how high you're down, you know. Down I'll go to the Y Component, and then I just play with the numbers there. But the main thing is, if you're trying to match the walls, you want to know what the coordinates of the wall that you're trying to match is and the easiest way to do it is to click on the wall itself. And you'll know that you're on the wall, because it'll it'll tell you. It's you know it's the wall, whatever the wall Designation is, and then you can click on the numbers. There, now, the tricky thing is.

Michael Price

The wall that I'm clicking on here, which is the one that says, call me Ishmael that fought that back wall there. If you look at rotation, you'll see that it says the X is minus 180 to 180 degrees, and the Z. Is minus 180. So if I place artwork on that wall, if I don't have the orientation for the art, including this minus 180, your art's gonna appear mirror imaged. So you need to include that orientation. Otherwise, it's gonna look to the reverse of what you normally think that it should be.

Michael Price

So. That's something you need to pay attention to as well. Does that make sense?

Let me get this straight on the Ishmael wall. Yes, alright! The walls coordinates, and then your art should mirror the wall. Okay, here's what I'm saying is, if I click on this one a dying black sun. I just clicked on that art.

Okay. If you look at the rotation for my artwork, it says, minus 180 for the X Rotation and minus 180 for the Z rotation. If I don't do that, if I had it, the normal way of 0 0. Now it's see how it's reversed. See how this image now is mirrored opposite of what it was just a moment ago. The real orientation is Minus the minus 180, minus 180 for this wall. Because what happens is the World Court. I know I'm getting really technical here, but you need. You need to know what the orientation of the wall is so when your artwork goes up on that wall, it matches that wall's orientation, otherwise it'll look wrong.

Michael Price

It'll look the reversed of what it should be. It's just a trick of a 3D environment. It's something you have to understand. But the wall will tell you like if I click on this wall here, the one the wall that I just clicked on to the right. If you look at rotation there, it's 0 90 and 0, and that 90 means, if I were to bring. If I were to bring the dying black sun forward. A. If I were to bring it forward more. See, I need to rotate it if I want to make, put it on this wall to the right. You see how it just rotated a little bit. Yes, so now, if I were to move it, if I were to actually move it.

Michael Price

II could get it onto this wall. But it's rotation to be on this back wall. That needs to be at 0.

Michael Price

Does that? Am I? Am I making sense to you or not?

Yeah. I have a question about navigation in general. You're working on a windows machine with a particular type of mouse. And I take it you're holding your mouse down as you're dragging the works right. But on a Mac The most doesn't have those capabilities and navigation. I tend to just mentioning this for those of you out there working on a Mac. You can use the arrow buttons, but it's not as easy as it is on a windows machine.

Can I interject here, can you? Unfortunately the zoom window is over the keyboard, over the direction, so I can't see. But if you put your cursor on a Mac between the X and the number box in sort of press. There you get a sideways perfect cause. You don't need the keyboard to change the numbers and orientation is right there in that window. The properties window. Basically, you click on, you click on the

The X or the Y or the Z, and you'll see a little kind of side arrow to arrow that lets you, that lets you play with like I'm doing with the with the image right now. The dying song.

II don't see the XY. And Z. I'm viewing this on my iPhone. And I don't see

Coordinates. Well, oh, my gosh! Well, then. That's problematic. So I have to switch my machine. I have to go to my laptop. I yeah, would to be honest, Frenada, if you do not have The this side interface here, viewable or usable. This is, gonna be a pain in the ass to try to get to work. Yeah, yeah.

II have another question, Michael. I hope I'm not Ending someone else's answer. However. On my template I see images, and there are little red triangles with exclamation points in them seem to get rid of them. I don't know what it means.

Typically I was getting those as well, and usually that means that the image is too large. The recommendation is that The images need to be less than 2,000 pixels in either the X or the you know the horizontal or the vertical direction. Okay. And that's you can definitely go smaller. Now.

Can you show at some point uploading an image?

Pardon me, show us at some point uploading. Sure.

Michael Price

I can. I can do that. So, for instance. If. Say, if I wanted to replace this. Now, I need to now to do the upload. Oh. Okay, let me. I need. I need the bring this out. So you need to have before you upload anything you need to know what the URL for the image is. It? It needs to have been saved somewhere, either using imguire, or for in my case I'm using my squarespace account and I've got all my images saved on Squarespace, and so I use the link there.

Michael Price

But basically, if you go to image URL, you can see you can see here. My, my squarespace account. URL, but if I go all the way here, and I just hit Delete. Now it's blank. And if I wanna in include a new URL, I can type that in here. Or I could. Do you know a cut and paste to put right into that to that spot? So let me. Let me do that just a second. Here.

Michael Price

Quickly going to my asset library. Let me pick an image.

Michael Price

Okay, let me pick this one.

Michael Price

So let me come back. Okay. So here. Now you can see how it the what the white and so black image is now gone away. And I'm gonna so I type. So I did a cut and paste, and I've got a new image, URL, in here. And then all I have to do is just click off of it. And you see now, you see the new image

You said you clicked off of it. Does that mean you hit enter?

You can hit enter. I just click for me. I don't even worry about. Enter. I just take my mouse cursor and I click in a blank space.

And it's the same thing as hitting enter.

And now, instead of a red triangle, you have a yellow triangle.

So see this red, yellow triangle. Now. If I hover over it, it tells me the image is too large. So I know that if I wanted to use that to be as efficient as I can in the Execution of my space, I'll want to go in and, you know, make a smaller, a slightly smaller image. So it doesn't exceed The file size that it recommends.

Okay, that helps me. I also wanted to ask. I had trouble getting rid of Tommy's images. I would delete, you know, his URL, and try to put my URL in. Somehow I wasn't losing his image. I don't know why, or maybe he had several, and I thought it was

Not the one I deleted. So okay, I did not have that problem, so I'm not sure. In fact, I ended up just kind of deleting most of his images and just starting over and placing my own. But it I'm not saying that's a better solution. But Yeah, if you actually deleted the URL, and then you put in your own. That should work there, there should be anything else. And then it's just from there. It's a matter of placing it where you want it to be

Okay. And if are there enough image slots up there? Or do you have to create new image slots? If you have more?

That's a good question, and I created new image slots. So the what and I don't know. Have you tried doing that? You see where I've got my cursor over image down in here on the bottom. Right? Elements? Yes, in elements. So I click on image. Now. There's this blank image widget that's following my cursor. So if I just click over here. Now you see that I need to reorient it. So this is where I have to do the 90 degrees. And now it's behind the wall, so I need to bring it forward.

Michael Price

And then I then if I wanted to.

Michael Price

For instance, since I since I save the other URL, I'm just gonna include it here as well. So now I have 2 images. But basically, I created a new widget, an image widget. Then I have to figure out where I want to place it. How big I want it? And then there you go.

So how do you know that it's behind the wall.

Well. The easiest way to tell Renata Rerenetta is. If I move it around. And in the process of moving it.

Michael Price

See how now you see, like just the outline of the image. We don't see the image that means it's actually behind the wall, and I'll show you.

Michael Price

You see how it's. Yes, I see see back right. I'm gonna try to get close in here to show this is the fun of navigating in a threed space. But A.

Michael Price

As I get. Closer to the wall here.

Michael Price

Yeah, it's tricky. It's right back there. See? It's right behind the wall. Yeah. And then The easiest way for me to know how to bring it forward, since it's at minus 2, I'll go. Let's try minus one. It's already now, way out here. So I could just keep playing with it, and I know that onee is where I want to be. But now you can tell this one. This larger version is at a scale of 1.8. And this smaller version is that a scale one? So if I want to make it larger, all I have to do is play with the scale. And I could make it, you know, as large as I want to. That's appropriate.

Michael Price

And the nice thing is. Even when it's scaled up. There's a lot of detail. The detail is very nice, and that's what everybody's been talking about is

Can I say something, Michael, on the just talking about Reneo. When I first started using this, I was lost all over the place and so what I found after a while by experimenting, is that sometimes when you're going back towards the wall or away from the wall, I'm thinking I'm facing the wall, and the piece is getting larger. But it's not. It's actually going back in space or coming forward.

So I found

Constantly spinning. You know, I put something in, and they'll just do a little rotation a little bit before I start doing something, cause it tells me where that painting came in away from the wall. I don't know if I'm explaining it correctly, Michael, maybe you can.

It's the yeah. It's the illusion that if you don't know where that object is in the 3 dimensional space it can feel like, Oh, this is really, really large, or this is really tiny. And you need, that's where you need to understand again, where it's located in space. Because alright.

So when you're talking about rotation, Karen and Michael.

You're talking about rotating the room, the whole room, the whole room. So you can see behind where it's behind, where it's how large it is, etc., right? Because you may have your painting here, and you're painting here, and you brought one in the middle, and it says, Oh, it looks fine. But if you spin, you realize yeah, it looked the same sizes, all 3. But when you spin the wall you realize it's 6 feet away from the wall, the one in the middle back.

See how this smaller one now looks bigger. But the app. The reality is as they start to spit, you know. Move around in the room. It's way forward. So as I'm as my camera is right here. You know my eyes are right here. It looks bigger, but that's an illusion, because it's closer to me. Because it's sitting in the middle, you know it's kind of floating in the middle of the room where this guy back here is actually against that wall. So that's where you need. That's the hard part of a threed space is you need to know where things are oriented in your in your room, or you know your gallery?

Michael Price

And that's where these numbers. Especially especially if you know you like, where your walls are. You need to know the values of these Positions and the rotations of the walls, because if you're placing things against them, they need. They need to be close to the numbers here.

So the image placement, the image numbers for rotation must be the same as the rotation numbers for the wall

Very close to it. The rotations need to be identical. The rotation tells you the facing of the wall.

Okay, so if I want to put an image on that wall that has 0, 0, then 90, my image should have that set of rotation numbers very close to it should be the those should be the same. Oh, identical. Okay. If I could interject the picture itself, what Michael's talking about is the exact dimensions of the wall

Are like the paint on the wall. You don't want to put your picture there. You want it. One step into the room just by a fraction.

Otherwise your picture's going to disappear in the gray paint. Get it? Orientation needs to match.

Yes. So how do you spin the room.

So, okay, that's a great question, Bernadette. So for me, I. And again, I'm on a PC. So again, those who are Mac users, you may do things differently. Do you see? Do you see my cursor here? Okay. So if I do a left click. And then I'm just

Moving my mouse. I get an orientation change like this, so I can see.

And then, if I want to actually move. I can use the wheel in the center of my mouse to go back and forward. Now, the other thing that you can also do which is helpful is, if I do a right click. Then what it does is it uses my position as the rotation spot, and so now I can rotate exactly where I am in the room to look around in the room.

Right? Okay. Okay. Why use a PC, oriented mouse that I connect to my MacBook pro via USB port. So I'll just make my instrument of choice. While dealing with the Siberiana space that's exactly what Tommy does

So I want I wanted to show I wanted to show just real. Briefly here, this image. Has. Actually, this is a video. And so I wanted to show, here's my URL for my YouTube video for it to play. Now. It won't play in here. I'll need to, you know, be in the actual hub space for it to actually play. But that's my video, and it does play fine.

Michael Price

The other thing that the other thing that I've done is that I have.

Michael Price

I have an audio file here. That's kind of like a welcoming file. And I use Soundcloud to play audio and soundcloud is free, and it works fine. So if there's anybody who's thinking of using audio, and you don't have a way for hosting. Go to soundcloud.com.

Hey, Michael, I'm gonna have to take off but you know, feel free to continue as long as it's a good conversation. And if you don't mind, before you guys close out either before or after the recording ends. If you can collectively decide on a new topic for Salon 78. And hopefully, the person who suggests it will be The moderator. But I'll refer back to the end of the salon. Maybe if you just keep that in the recording, that would be the easiest that way. I could just look back at the end of the recording. And you know, kinda take it from there to build auto, graphic and everything.

Colin Goldberg

Okay. Okay, alright cool. Take care, everyone. Happy Hanukkah to those to celebrate.

Yes. Hi! I'm happy. I'm Monica

By gun.

Happy Hanukkah! Yes, Happy Hanukkah.

I have another question. If no one else does.

Well, I do. I have. I have some questions, too. I have. II think I think I understand everything that Michael is doing. But I don't know how you got there is this like the URL that's at the top. And Hubbs mozilla.com spoke projects. Is that how you get on here?

Yes.

And then you just you work the software through that.

Yes, you, you have it on your computer. Yeah, if you if you haven't done this yet. I would definitely suggest. If you got Tommy's email with the instructions for how to start that you follow that? Okay? And if you don't have that. We need to get that to you because you basically need to create the account where you start with spoke. And then you can, and then use Tommy's Template to begin, and that's the template that will open up the spoke interface for you

Alright. That was the original email they sent

Renata. Can you help me with that cause? I don't remember exactly. It's been a while.

It's the second email. Okay? And if you don't, if you don't have it, Cheryl, I can just right now I can shoot it to you. Okay.

Great.

Okay. I have a question about the. Overall sort of meta presentation of the galleries in Siberiana. I see here that you have a. Several Techspressionist presentations of this work, Michael Art Book Gallery. And then you have my name is Ishmael. Okay. So overall. How are these galleries being named? Is there a uniformity to that? Do we name by project, or do we name by business superstructure? Or do we name by author? You know, by the

That's a great question, and I would be happy if Renata or Steven has any feeling on that. But Tommy, I think, is leaving it to everybody. As to. What your room, or gallery, or space is, if you want it. According to your name. And then it I don't necessarily see A uniformity other than we've talked about keeping the stuff outside similar with the kind of tying into the public space with the tile roofing and the public space arena around it. But internally inside.

Michael Price

We've really said, if you want to use the template as the minimum. And all you do is replace the images in there, and that's as far as you go, because that's all you feel comfortable doing. Then at least you've got a space within Siberiana. If you want to exercise a little bit more of your creativity, and you want to add new things in, or you want to change some of the things that's up to you. And so. That's kind of the philosophy. I would say that Tommy has brought to it, and as far as I could see, what Steven and Renata and myself have kind of worked with as well. So does that kind of help. Well, strategically having a scatter shot

Approach to nomenclature. Is, or I guess I could better see, signage. Individual signage disadvantages you. It disadvantages the project, and it disadvantages. The Us. The artist's gallery space, and the way it does it is that it is not search engine optimized for continuity. For instance, if I have a gallery space that I want to have well known in Siberiana. It is useful for people who look for my work to know how to look for it. I have many different projects, but if I use the different projects to name the galleries Assuming it'd be more than one over time. Then they're gonna not be able to readily identify me. And that becomes a time factor. And time is money on the Internet. People need ready identification. But if I call myself I call my gallery space Verneda Lights.

Verneda Lights

Or I name it after my business e graphics omnimia then you have that anchor identification. And yet at within the space itself I can have a variation of projects to be presented without losing continuity. So, strategically speaking, there's great advantage to giving an in-depth thought to how you're gonna approach signage and how it will advantage or disadvantage the people within The space and the space itself in general, I mean, get lost with Siberiana, cause, you know, that's gonna be constant.

Verneda Lights

But to have all these other names and titles and stuff moving around and variable over time will disadvantage you in terms of developing search engine traction.

I mean, it's as far as far as. The as far as I know, we don't have like something hard and fast. The way that the way the signup page or the way the page is set does focus on the artist and artists name. And so I would assume that, you know, that's kind of what we're following. But.

Michael, I'm I want to perhaps go back a few steps, because III must admit I didn't catch the beginning of this particular discussion, but we had a hard and fast decision that each artist would have a door in the town square with the same layout for the door, IE. There would be a round window there would be a portrait, sized artwork, and there would be the artist's name below. So everyone has the same presentation in the town square. It goes by your name. If you want to put your company name.

Renata Janiszewska

That's welcome as well, that's all. And then everything else inside the spaces. The studios is up to the individual artist. Does that? Does that help?

Well, I it gives clarity as to what the initial vision was and what it is now. But I'm still thinking I'm projecting into the future over time. That Ye may well have to tweak that for search engine purposes. You know, or that search engine optimization may not be a concern. You know, for the project, but it's something that's definitely on my mind, you know, as a web master. So we'll see. I'll just figure it out for myself, and then see how it plays, and make sure that what I do put up is compliant with what's already been set forth.

I have another question about when you first go into The Mozilla Hub and you're in, spoke, and Tommy mentioned something about on the left hand side. You got the little hamburger, and there's a file, save there, and he had suggested doing that, and then afterwards publishing, or should they be done at the same time at the end when you're finished?

Okay, that's that is an excellent question, Cynthia, and. I am a believer of saving often. And the reason, I say that is, when you make changes, when you make additions, when you change something. It's easier if you save. Then, if something happens, if you make a mistake, you haven't done like 50 different things, and then you've lost what you've done. So I it. It's a lit. It lengthens the process very slightly, but I tend to save, and then I'll publish.

Michael Price

And then I'll look at the example again, so I'll walk through in Hu, you know a after I save the at the end of the save process. It asks you if you wanna if you want to enter your seed and hubs. And that way I can go in hubs and make sure that I'm happy with the change or changes that I've made and I can. I can. You know. Certified to myself that what I've done is exactly what I wanted it to do. Maybe I'll look at it, and I'll think. Oh, I should really tweak this up a little higher or lower, or a little more to the left, or a little more to the right, but having that back and forth process really helps me that if I make too many changes and then I save and I'm not liking things, I won't. I won't remember how I changed things previously. So I'm a believer in saving often and reviewing those changes.

So you're saying, after I go in for the first time, and I do my thing. I go up to the Hamburger, and I do file, save. And then I say to myself, Let me look again what I have done by going out of the room and reviewing it just like you do with a website.

You can do that. And what I often what I often do is you'll see this blue button that says, publish to hubs I'll use. II won't even go to the Hamburger. I'll just go up to here and I'll click on that publish to hubs.

Michael Price

And it'll bring this up, and if I want to save and publish, I'll click on that if I don't cause, I don't want to make the changes I cancelled here, cause I've screwed my gallery up here.

Okay, so it's file save. And then, when you're if you're happy with the changes by reviewing them and seeing it, what it looks like to the public. Then you can go to publish. And then that finalizes to save.

Yeah. And when you go to publish, that'll let you go actually go into hubs and see it as an end user. And that's really helpful. Because Oftentimes you things look good still in here, and you may realize, oh, this is still sticking out of the wall a little bit too much. I want to, you know. I want to push this closer and actually seeing it in hubs versus seeing it in, spoke

Can be really instrumental in making those final changes, or the tweets that you like better. So the reason my view of it in hubs was not the same as what it looked like when I was working on. It is because I had not tweaked those images enough. Put them where they should be. I'm getting to see that they're floating so back, and I rework it alright. So you'll need to understand why what I see in hubs is not the same

Correct. Because what happens is when you're working. If you're working in here and you're trying to do everything from one perspective. You know, this may look fine here. This may look fine here, and that looks okay. And that looks okay. But I need to actually walk through the space to see. Now, now my perspective is different here, and if this were, if this particular image were sticking out too far, I may not have noticed it when I was closer to this side of the room.

Michael Price

But once I get here I could see. Oh, gosh! This is, you know, this is sticking out too far. I need to. I need to push it closer to the wall. And that's where sometimes, going actually into hubs can help. You see those discrepancies that you might have been blind to in spoke if you if you don't. If you don't really move through the spoke spaces as readily as you do in the hub space. I mean, it's the same space. It's just looking at it from the end user versus looking at it from the person creating the interface.

Michael Price

If that makes sense. Yes, it does make sense. Okay.

Are those arrows functional? The arrows that are emanating from the artwork? Are they functional? Can you click on them, and they will move forward, back, whatever.

Bernadette, can. You see that this green arrow all of a sudden becomes brighter now with my. So that lets me know it's functional, and it will. So it moves vertically. And so now click on the red one. Let's see what that does. Okay, in and out the wall. Okay? And yeah.

Okay, well, that's more user friendly than the mouse thing. I think

This will get you close. The numbers is the numbers will give you precision. This will give. This will give you. I'm close to where I want to be. I you know this feels close. But let me play with the numbers to make sure how it's looking with respect to the actual wall itself. That's why these numbers on the side here give you precision. And as and as Karen LaFleur had mentioned, if you want to use The Slider instead of just typing in the numbers, all you have to do is click on here, and you'll see that's sliding, sliding here. I'm actually changing the numbers in that interface as well. So it depends on what works for you. There's several different ways to play around with this.

Michael Price

But the bay, the main thing is getting the right precision, so that something that looks like it's fine, is it's actually sticking out into the room or isn't the reverse of the image the way you want it to actually be. So you know that's some of the stuff you need to be able to deal with. And then and then the other thing that I've got a lot of in here is actual text, and it works very similarly to the images. I don't know why it's called troika text, but that's what it is. If you click on here and troika texts.

Michael Price

Then you can create a text. And again, it has. You have to worry about the orientation. You can worry about the size. And then you type in what it is you want. You want and The width of how much text you can put on a line you can. You can control. That's what I did. Here. You can see in here all the text that I had to type in. I basically had to set how wide my paragraphs are. Cause if it's too wide, the text will go out into, you know, into the room here, that's, you know, not on, on, not on this surface that I created.

Oh, Michael, I'm gonna have to jump off. But I just wanted to remind everybody that the opening it's going to take place in the town square on December the thirtieth. That's a Saturday afternoon, from one to 4 pm. Eastern time. We will send you an email reminding you about the party. I hope you all come with your avatar and looking forward to seeing you. Then.

Thanks, Renata. Thanks.

Will you have. Well, according to what we're not just said, I was gonna ask in light of the fact that the learning curve for how various members might be, you know, steep or not, but for those who are struggling. Is there flexibility in the opening date that would allow them time necessary to more fully get on board? Or is the opening date hard and fast, and those who don't learn within thee Timeframe of have to wait, or maybe just roll out as the it's the unfolds

That's an important question. It's one that we have talked about. So here I'm speaking just for myself. This is not an official statement at all. So. I think right now we are asking for people to get their form filled out and sent in to us like a week from tomorrow. I think the date is the fifteenth. My guess is, if enough artists are still struggling to get their spaces done. And that doesn't happen. It's gonna be up to probably Tommy to figure out whether or not what that means for the opening.

Michael Price

So I don't have a my feeling is Breneda, that it's gonna be driven by the community. Whether or not whether or not we have everybody Sufficiently along, so that their spaces are in a shape that people are happy with, and I don't know what the answer is to that. That's why I wanted to have several tutorial sessions. And that's why we've I felt that doing something like this today would be helpful. But I don't II have no idea how far along everybody is at this point.

Michael Price

So my feeling is personally that if we don't have an overwhelming number of the artists ready to show that will probably need to push this off a bit but I don't know that there we're operating under the assumption right now that December the thirtieth is a go. Well, it looks from the sounds of

From the feedback here. I'm just guessing now that the Mozilla learning experience is a bit steep, and it may be more steep for some than others, but I would. I think it's fair to say it. It is. It challenges everyone. And it's not just an easy ride.

Correct. So it's not WordPress, and even WordPress has its challenges and whatnot. But now, this is a level up.

Yeah. Oh, yes, it is very much so cause Mozilla is still evolving anyway, in terms of its users treatments.

That's true. I, to be honest, I don't know how hard and fast that deadline is and because Tommy was The originator of this concept. You know, and he's not here. I'm uncomfortable saying, this is the way it is. But I'm just trying as somebody who has been one of the 4 working on this I. And because of my experience in the game industry working with environments. I have been a proponent that this is gonna probably take longer to get done than what the others have thought and but I don't know, you know. And so my feeling is. I think, the community, if half the artists have not been able to get something that they're happy with.

Michael Price

You know, then, that I think that makes the decision something really important. Because. You know, we're trying to make this a community space. And we need to have enough people for that to be viable and something that feels like it's a positive

Yeah, a one way you could hold on to The structure that you, the time structure that you currently have would be

To roll out the project in iterations.

Yeah, you can do the soft opening call. It may be on the thirtieth, and then A month later.

Another iteration. Right? Yeah. And the challenge. The challenge is, Rene, is that. It's very hands on to incorporate. Changes. So it's not an automated process Tommy, or whoever's gonna be handling the database has to do physical entries of here's the information. Here are the links. And all of that for it to work. So what we were planning is that once we're up and running, that we would have periodic updates. It, you know, if we got everything past the soft launch. Maybe we do have a couple of updates that are monthly, but then from there we would probably do quarterly updates, because there's an intensive aspect to making the updates. But so that's kind of where we're at in behind the scenes.

Well, I agree with everything that Bernada mentioned. And, Michael, I understand your feelings, and why they have to be that way. So I'm hoping, you know, that either there's a soft opening, or that the opening is postponed. Again. We don't know how many people have already submitted to Tommy. Even that would be. That would be interesting and indicative. I would think of where we're going with this. And I certainly do not wanna put something out that I'm not proud of simply to be ready for December thirtieth.

This is most difficult month of the year in terms of holidays and being busy.

And so that. And I've been working. I've been working on this along with Judy Jacobs, put a lot of time into trying to figure it out so II haven't waited till today to say, Well, I'm gonna give this a try. You're not alone. You're not alone in that, Cynthia at all.

Which is why. For me, having tutorials. I wanted to have some tutorials before today. Just some. Just so. Just so it wasn't feeling rushed to try to make that deadline of the fifteenth and. I that just didn't come about. Unfortunately, yeah, this would have been much better.

This type of session Ideally, because high sight is always 2020

Would have taken place 2 months ago. Yes. That's been my voice to the group. And I. It won't surprise me if the lodge changes. But it may not, and we may only have, you know, a few things up and running as a very soft, soft launch. And then But I. Yeah, II. It's a valued, it's a valiant effort. It's a good effort. I'm really happy. We're doing this. But it's not. It's not like putting a website together. There's it's everybody. I'm grateful for everybody, at least making the attempt.

Michael Price

And I think this is this is where. Over the next week whenever the fifteenth rolls around. You know, in 8 days. This, this is where it's The voices in the community are gonna have to say we need a lot more time, or we're not there yet. And that's where I think the evaluation is gonna have to come is depending on what the feedback is from everybody. Where and how can we express it?

I mean, feedback will be they don't. I think this has to go directly to Tommy.

I sent an email. When I first was having problems, I sent an email to the Siberiana email.com. So the email that you got your information from that's where I sent it to. And so I think if everyone. Just, you know, if you're having problems and it's not working for you, and you're not gonna be ready. I think you just need to be really upfront with them about that. And then, like Michael said, if there are enough People who for whom that's the case. Then maybe things will change. But I also know that they're already advertising The Siberiana open. How? Opening on Techspressionism so they may not want to change it, for whatever reason.

Deann Stein Hasinoff

In which case some people may like myself may just be like, is it gonna happen? I'll do it another time, maybe this time we'll see now that I've said this little tutorial, I'm like a little more hopeful that I could actually make it work, but you know it's still, you know, I'm one of the people who's at the bottom of the mountain right now. So I got get to the top.

The other the other thing. And this is not a great solution but The very barest minimum is, if you still wanted to have A presence in Siberiana for the launch would be to have your name. The image that you want on the door. And a link to your web page or a link to something that Expresses, you know your Siberiana spaces coming, whatever it is, and that would be the bare minimum that way. If people click on your doorway in the in the in the town square that at least it's active.

Michael Price

Even though it doesn't take you to your 3D space. They know you're part of this. They can go to your website. You can advertise on your website that you're part of the Siberian thing, and that's the bare minimum. I you know, that doesn't satisfy me, but it's something. It at least shows that you're participating. And it's like, you know, your space is coming. I'm hoping that you could get there and have an actual space before the soft launch, but that those are kind of the tiers. Is your space is done.

Michael Price

You! You've got your doorway and it goes to your website. But that's kind of you know. That's kind of the At least I'm in the space sort of thing. That sounds like a good idea. But that but that was something. I told Tommy that we had at least at a minimum. We needed to be able to do so if somebody wasn't ready or they didn't have time. That at least they're part of the experience they're in the space, and that we know that they will be part of it at some point.

Michael Price

And at least that it. You know, we don't want all, you know, 75 artists just leaking to their website, and that, you know, kind of defeats the purpose of having a threed space. But if you, if you can't be ready that it's at least your presence is still in there.

Those Judith and I are sharing a room, so we would give Tommy 2 names and our image. And link to the website. See? That presents another issue?

That's a good question. And I don't know what the resolution to that would be. Because The image is going to have the image on the door is going to have the link. And we can only have one link, as far as I know.

Okay, well, what about a landing page? If they built a landing page

They could. That will unify the yeah. If you did a landing page where both of you presence are on there, that then, could go to your web individual web pages. That's fine. You could do something like that, too. So

And what about the name? Can 2 names be on the door?

As far as I know, 2 names is fine having on the door, I believe. I don't know how much space there is for the name on the door, so that's something you probably should ask directly. II would. I would suggest sending an email out pretty soon on that question.

Okay.

You know, before we go, before we lose too many of us. We have to decide what next meeting title is. Hate to bring up a bad subject. But

Yeah, that's he did ask us to do that.

And

How about the New Year?

Anybody have any good ideas for the next subject?

Well, what were some of the things that we talked about in the co working session. I know that during our discussions we had there was like text to text and art or text and art, or something like that. And then there was another one. I can't remember what it was.

Yeah, I can't, either.

Texting art is a good one. Yeah, let's try that I will email Colin, and tell him that's what we decided.

And I would say that pulling off of Karen's. So our discussion of fast fiction or flash. What is it called flash fiction or sudden fiction necessarily have to be incorporated into the art. It can be part of the narrative narrative of the art, or something. No, like Karen did some things where she had a narrative, a short narrative that was associated with the image. But they weren't.

Yeah, that's great. I think that's a good idea. I have a last question, Michael. When you want to publish your room to the hops, should you? Check the both options that when you want to save and po publish. Like re mixing with creative commons, CC. Under line bw 3.

So you have to. There are 2 boxes that you have to check. Yes, so here, let me. So here's the publish.

Yes.

So when you so do the save, and publish. The next box will give you the. I believe the link.

Michael Price

If I remember correctly. But I don't want to do that here because I've screwed up my gallery. I mean the 2 boxes. Mtv, check boxes. To click, publish.

Yeah.

When you click on. There were those 2 box check boxes that you had the boxes. Will they allow remixing and the allow here

Allow Mozilla to promote my scene? I have no idea. And what is remixing with II don't know whether or not how that would impact anything.

Yeah, I don't want remixing. II don't want anybody messing with my images.

That would be a question. I don't ha! I don't have a good answer. I don't know technically whether that would make any impact on your space, Sahar. I don't know if Tommy might know that. So that may be a question to send to the Siberiana website are to the Siberiana email

That might explain the so when I open up, spoke. I don't get edit in, spoke I get remix in. Spoke so is that, could it be

The link that I have, because I use the link that he that Tommy sent right

So it could be that somehow that was checked off to allow to make it into a template to allow people to make changes or something.

You know. That's.

Michael Price

That's a good question. And I don't know. Because I think when I work in spoke as well. I think I get remix. I don't think I get edit. Cause. That was one. That was one thing that freaked me out at first was cause in Tommy's example it shows edit. And when I went in, I remember, I've got remix. And maybe that's because since we're using that as a template. We're actually remixing what was initially given to us to use.

I'm speculating. I did in my email. My original email, I said, is my problem, because mine says remix and not edit. And we're not. I didn't think that was the issue. So it's not yeah. So it's just my own, you know. Tech issues. I have to sort out. But yeah, this was very helpful. So thank you for going through all of that information.

Yes, thank you very much. You're definitely welcome. If we need to do another session. Sometime next week. I'd be willing to run another tutorial. The only problem is. I don't know when we would do that, and who might be interested. So is there is there any kind of consensus here that we should have a new, another tutorial? Or do you think you have enough to kind of gets you going?

Could we? Potentially, just for this one week. Co-OP the Co. Working. Cynthia Beth Rubin.

She began the program and see if she's amenable. If that's the case.

Cynthia, would you talk to Cynthia about that? Okay, if it if it's the case, we could do that. Send me an email, and I'd be happy to run another tutorial. That would be Tuesday at noon. Eastern.

That's for 12.

The link that session is on the Techspressionism.

Main page. Yeah. And that's why I was gonna suggest that we should publicize it. So more people would know.

Yeah.

So alright. So how would we publicize it? So more people would know. Facebook page.

Yeah, we could get Renata to also posted on Instagram.

Yeah.

I can email Colin, and see what he thinks, too. Since I need to out since. I'll email just to let them know about

Text and art or art and text, Cynthia, and next Tuesday and

We'll go from there and then I'll contact you, Michael, as to what happened. Yeah, unless there's a you know, like remaining questions, I'm a little toasty at this point. Thank you so much, Michael. Oh, you're welcome.

Thanks, Michael. Thanks.

Thank you. Yes, thank you very much. It's been real everybody.

Alright. Good luck, everyone.

Maybe I'll see you on Tuesday for real back on Wood Yup.