Salon 53 // Photography and Media Confluence

Hello, my name is Colin Goldberg and welcome to the Techspressionist Salon Number 53. Tonight's salon is being moderated by two artists, two of our artists, Renata Janiszewska and Tommy Mintz. And the topic this evening is photography and media confluence. So Renata and Tommy have selected a panel of artists to present their work. And without further ado, I will hand it over to Renata.

Thank you very much, Colin. I'm really looking forward to the presentations that we're going to have tonight on photography and media confluence. Tommy is a photographer and he gave our artists some questions to consider in doing their presentations this evening. And I believe that he can paraphrase them for us before we get started.

Thank you, Renata.

Renata and I had a series of correspondence over the past two weeks since the last Techspressionism meeting. And we came up with a couple prompts that we were hoping to instigate a conversation based on. And I'm pulling them up right now. I'm having a hard time talking and tapping at the same time. So the ideas we sort of would like to introduce in this conversation are the idea that at the beginning of photography, the painter Paul de la Roche famously declared that painting was dead.

Tommy Mintz

Right. So now as photographers, as lens based artists, where do we stand at this moment of AI? Susan Sontag in 1972, I hope, said that photography served as the sort of locus of visual imagination and photography re-understood what we have the right to observe. And unlike all other media, has the grandiose ambition to catalog the entire world.

Tommy Mintz

So that was about photographers. Renata, you have a question. I'm a photographer. I'm a photographer. And now the photographers work with computers that are interconnected through digital media at all times. How does that change our worldview? So where are we when we work as photographers now? And those are the questions that we sort of came to this over this week. What new forms arise when considering this space?

Tommy Mintz

And how do you find yourself as artists working within the space? What new forms have you found? And that's where my praise, my bit ends. Thanks, Renata. I think you have a list of artists that we're going to have five minute presentations. Hopefully.

Yes.

Yes.

I've posted the list to the chat. Our first artist is coming to us from the Netherlands. He is Tikoi Keitenbroer. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for staying up late to be with us tonight.

Well, thank you, Renata. Thank you also for the invite tonight. I'm really looking forward to see all the other presentations as well. And now that I'm starting presentations, somebody's knocking on the door. It's probably my wife coming home. I have to open it. Oh. So sorry for that.

Oh, well, time

Differences. Well, to answer the big question of tonight, whether I think photography will die by the end of new media and AI, like they said, painting would do. I would say that's a big no for me. I think photography has always been such a strong media. And I think that's especially because of the paradox of photography. That's it's a straight reflection of reality. But at the same time, it's not because it's just a two dimensional depiction of it and it could never be real. But at the same time, it has this power that people say when they show their past. But photo, they say this is me. They don't say this is a photo of me. This is me. So it's always been such a strong medium for me and to be able to mix it with other media. That's the big, big part and the big exciting thing about it.

Tikoi Kuitenbrouwer

And I think that will, of course, never go will never go under, especially will even get bigger in time. And. Well, like the first way I used photography was to because I couldn't sketch or anything. I'm going to start my share screen now. I am. OK. Basic share. So no, really? How come this is the wrong freaking?

Tikoi Kuitenbrouwer

Sorry. There we go. Well, I couldn't really sketch. So I took photos and then I got them developed and brought them to a bookstore and I photocopied it and I enlarged it and enlarged it. So I had a back piece to draw on or to paint on my first art classes in high school. And that was the first get together of different media. But this is the first double exposure because this is the big thing I'm doing now. The first double exposure I ever took. But it's also made with a pinhole camera I made myself with six holes in it and it goes in these six parts intertwined in one negative. But here in the middle you can see my first self portrait.

Tikoi Kuitenbrouwer

Double exposure. OK. I've been making myself make a daily double for a whole year now. And this is a big thing for me because I was getting almost lost in all the opportunities and all the possibilities in making the double exposures and also making them with glitch and everything. But now it's back to looking at the composition and the framing and the lighting and the most basic parts. And it's also a small diary.

Tikoi Kuitenbrouwer

And there are even... Like here, I'm waiting for my daughter to come out of recovery. So there are really personal stuff in there as well, and colleagues. So I like being back to the base and considering photography to be the beautiful thing that it is. And as a Techspressionist, I really like combining the new and the old, and that can go both ways.

Tikoi Kuitenbrouwer

Like making pinhole photos and stitching them together and make a quick time VR so you can turn around. Yeah. So you can turn around in an environment that looks like it's in 1873, but it's in the now.

One minute left.

Or like the other way around. You manipulate work on the computer and you put it back on a negative or you put it on a sheet and you expose it on a... On a... On a... Original photo paper. Pause sharing. I want to get back to the... Stop sharing.

Thank you very much.

Well, I wanted to show you some things as well. I'm making my own photography paper. And then the... The digital processed or manipulative... Where it's... I can put back on an old, really old medium. And I really love the way of the old processes... Those cyanotypes?...winding with the new stuff. So...

Tikoi Kuitenbrouwer

Those are cyanotypes?

Sorry? Are those cyanotypes?

Yeah, these are cyanotypes.

And I also started with...

A lot of cyanotypes. Yeah. I started with a lot of cyanotype. I started with a lot of... That's fantastic....with the cyanotype brown process. But there are also bigger ones that... Or bigger ones. These are ones that I got... Relighted? How do you say? Exposed on negative. And then I brought them back to the darkroom. So these are manipulated images from the computer put back on negatives and then I put them back on the darkroom and then developed in the darkroom on the old-fashioned way. Beautiful.

Tikoi Kuitenbrouwer

So those are... Yeah. That's what brings excitement from photography to me. To bring the old and the new together.

Thank you very much. Our next artist, Clive Holden, coming to you from Toronto, Canada.

Hi, everyone. Can you hear me okay? Yeah. Yes. See, Koi, I don't know if that's how you pronounce your name, but beautiful work. Thank you for showing it. Really well presented too. I also like that you mix the new and the old a lot. So I'm

Going to share my screen, of course. Okay. Did that work? Yes. Yes. Okay. Good. Painting's dead.

That's what it should say. Okay. Long live painting. It's an interesting question. It's partly the history of seeing really dramatic things in the art world and some of them get remembered for a long time. And I think that part of what he was saying was that paintings rule as the only way to record representative images. Representative images was over. But it freed up painting in the other hand. Abstract painting was born and the churn that we're in now that I think of as being a positive thing in the arts with so many things going on, we really grab anything we want now to make art with that kind of came out of that moment. And so it's, you know, photography is bigger than it's been ever. I mean, it's, it's a hundred times bigger than it was a decade ago because of social media and, and really great lens, lens based art making machines that are in everybody's phone.

Clive Holden

And it's a pretty powerful time for photography, but it's different than it was. And obviously fewer people are making film based photos, but lots still are. I still use photos. I, I, my background's in filmmaking and I use still use a motion picture film in my predominantly digital work. So I think that's a very interesting question to ask. What's the equivalent now though? It's an interesting question to ask if, you know, what, what would what would these people say now? And they might talk about the fact that the border between still moving images is evaporating. I think that's a really interesting thing about right now. If you again go to social media, you can see that people are interchanging video, very short duration videos and still images altogether as if they're exactly the same.

Clive Holden

Instead, they're looking at what's in them and seeing is this a powerful image in one way or another, even if it's just to excite people for a moment or whatever it is. So another thing is that we're soon starting to happen, but I mean, the large and cheap electronic display is going to be everywhere soon in the next five or 10 years, it's going to be an explosion of the price is starting to come down now, and it's probably going to plummet over the next five years. And that's going to be a big deal for a lot of people in this, in these meetings that take expressionism. It will be partly bad. This can be a lot of garbage around us. It's moving and trying to capture our attention to sell us stuff, but it's going to be really good for us and that we will be able to get some of these images we've been making up on the wall much more easily.

Clive Holden

But my primary interest in my artwork is the using code to present artwork live. I like to think of it as being free of duration and spatial constraints. It's interesting. I think it's a really good example of how we can make art that's infinitely scalable and it never repeats itself the same way twice. And that's my work. Live visual art is what I've been trying to get together. So these here are just a few still frames from my work. These are all live visual artworks that never repeat themselves the same way. And they rely on the grid, a lot of them. And they have a mixture of, film and digital content.

Clive Holden

And the basis of it, though, the digital basis of it, though, is using custom code to create this live mix. Again, it's a kind of a churn. It's often a churn of different media. And that's part of the purpose. This work, in 1000 years, the world will still be beautiful. It's something I'm just finishing now in its live form. I had a video of it. I've done earlier. And it's meant to be different, like view meters for audio, except it's processing visual images. And again, it's meant to show the live moment.

Clive Holden

And this is a work I made called Utopia Disco about 11 or 12 years ago. And it's just making a point partly here that you can make live media in a lot of different ways. In this case, people were invited to dance inside the 8 foot by 8 foot hut surrounded by images that were live mixing and surrounded by utopian heroes of one kind or another.

Clive Holden

And then just the most recent work I've been making is this work for Kingsborough Art Museum that Tommy is helping me with for next summer. And it's all live media. And that's my five minutes. Thanks for hearing me. And I hope you have a great evening.

Thank you very much, Clive. It's really great to see your most recent some of your most recent work. And it's really great to see you. Don't be a stranger. Please come to more of these.

I had an extremely busy summer with a lot of personal things going on in my family. So I will see a lot more of you now.

That's good news. Next up, we have Verneda Lights.

Yes. Good evening, everybody. It's my pleasure to be here. Today in the midst of this illustrious panel and my contribution to the discussion comes from the perspective of the innovation of color. And in order to discuss that, I'm going to draw on the history of photography as it was established in Western cultures. The camera is 206 years old and the first photograph dates back to 196 years ago. It was camera was developed by Joseph Nyssephour Nyssephour.

Verneda Lights

I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. And he's also the first photographer, according to recorded history. But the camera made art a more public and a more mobile event, but it did not democratize it. And photography basically was born in art of the bourgeoisie. Why? Because both dark rooms and photo processing chemicals were in art. Are expensive. Photographic setups were labor intensive and time consuming. And this is where I come in. Racial bias was baked into the science of photo development. The process of film development favored less melanated complexions. For example, the Shirley card. That was the color standard of the Kodak company, which basically was the behemoth that regulated how photography would be produced. And the Shirley card had white, very dark, and hardly anything in between.

Verneda Lights

And the objective was to make the lighter complexions look good. And everybody else was basically treated as noise. So people of color were for the most part as a major consideration in the art of photography were neglected. And the Shirley card did not include the shades of melanin that we see. With our naked eyes until 1990.

Verneda Lights

So I mean, by 1990, I was about ready to exit my medical practice and start becoming a photographer myself. But digital photography was an element that I believe truly democratized photography, that in the use of artistic software such as Photoshop, because it put color in the hands of individual artists and photographers.

Verneda Lights

So it became the antidote to the baked in anti-melanin bias that was put into the photo industry. Now with the advent of motion pictures, digital photography and the widespread use of cell phones and home printers, we see the catalyst, a catalytic effect where photography became more democratized. And these elements also accelerated the processes by which the camera became an instrument with which to make pictures rather than take pictures. So digital photography, cell phones and artistic software transformed the camera into a paintbrush, where it became just another tool used to actualize our reality. So I'm going to share my screen now.

Verneda Lights

I'm having difficulty with my screen sharing. Okay. Can you see my screen? Yes. Okay. So. Okay. So from my perspective, the camera is an instrument by which we make pictures. My camera is essentially my paintbrush. And I started off as a painter and then segued into photography because I had developed responsibilities as a caregiver and I didn't have time to set up to paint anymore. So I bought a cell phone and used the cell phone camera. And this image is called Tribal Reality. And it's one of the series I titled Gullah Me, which is a series of self portraits and portraits of my family members that I created while I was a caregiver because I wanted to document how we changed over time. I took care of my father, my mother and my younger brother.

Verneda Lights

They have all passed away. And this shows me it for the first time without these very beloved members of my family, and how I saw myself as a changed individual, having a segway from my family to my family. So I'm being the doctor with the white coat, you know, very uptight and straight and westernized into becoming more of a medicine woman and a warrior on behalf of the family. And you see we have the facial painting and the armor, the body armor.

Verneda Lights

And this is a piece titled Falling. And it resembles Vertigo. It is my visual representation of Vertigo. Because when you're a caregiver, you're not alone. You really can't anticipate what's going to happen. You're constantly off balance. And I used a series of photographs that were taken by NASA and the European Space Agency and the Jet Propulsion Lab to document the descent to Titan. And I merged it with the spiral configuration of a self portrait here. And because I felt like the two went together. For me, falling in outer space is the ultimate goal. And I think that's what I've learned from my experience with Vertigo.

Verneda Lights

And somewhat equivalent to what you feel when you're constantly stressed by caregiving demands. And this is titled Masks Fall Away. And here I used a photograph of myself I took while I was sitting at my brother's bedside. And I had my head wrapped as I do because that's the way my people are dressed. And I wanted to show the different aspects of myself that became activated. You know, you're not always one person all the time. You change according to the situation. And with my brother, my brother was disabled. He was mute and bed bound because of a stroke. And the doctors urged us to just let him die. And my parents felt otherwise. And so as one member of the family who was a family member, my father was the physician. It was my job to defend him and to be his voice. And so I have here the several masks where I represent myself as the African descendant of slaves, which I am.

Verneda Lights

As the warrior who fights and you see the blood stain on the face of the mask. And as you know, the physician who sees and analyzes. And here we see the x-ray like portrait is sort of like a merged triptych. And on top of it is the texture of fabric. And for some reason I felt compelled to put that on there. And I'm glad I did because this was created in 2017.

Verneda Lights

And masks became literally masks. Part of our everyday lives after 2020. So this is the spiritual mask initially manifesting as a circumstance that stimulated the artwork. But then the actual mask itself became manifest in our culture. And it is to me that is synchronicity. I think Jung would call it synchronicity.

Renata, I'm just going to remind you that it's almost time. Yep.

And this is the last piece, honey.

Okay.

We are closing in. This is called Tree is Me. And it's a self-portrait I took after my mother passed away from breast cancer. I had a mammogram and I wound up in the same examination room that my mother was in. She received her diagnosis. So, you know, it frightened me. And I could hear a voice saying, you know, don't be afraid. You're going to be fine. She had a very soft voice. Very wonderful. Beautiful woman. And so I just bolstered myself up and had the procedure. And it was normal. And then I went down to the cafeteria and had a great big meal and enjoyed myself and went and sat by the river. The hospital is built on the banks of a river.

Verneda Lights

And I live in the Carolina Low Country. So I took a picture of the tree that I sat under and I took a picture of myself and it captured the sky. And I executed a photo. I took a photo montage from those pictures because I wanted my hair to be like autumn leaves and I wanted to show how I personally have become the ancestry, you know, and the poetry of life.

Verneda Lights

So, yeah, so that's me. That's my work. And that's using my camera as a paintbrush. And to celebrate and depict. Black people who were initially left out of the science of photography. So that's it.

Nice. Great.

Thank you.

Thank you very much for sharing with us today, Vernetta. Jaime Bautista is our next presenter.

Thank you. Thank you to the team. And thank you to the participants. I'm going to be as quickly as possible and have my five minutes of fame, fortune. I don't know. Okay. This is my story. This is my first time participating in your team, by the way. So if I, whatever I blew it, I'm sorry, but my apologies.

Jaime Bautista

My education goes back to the, when I started going to high school. I learned art. Some crafts. I went to the art school. I learned to draw, paint, make models, face all the artistic alternatives that they offer me. Then that wasn't sufficient for me. They moved to the architectural school and I finished that special school. I became an architect. And then I started. I started. Combining drawings, paintings, and photography.

Jaime Bautista

Introducing into my architecture business. Along the way, the computers came up. And then I learned AutoCAD. Then I learned Vim. And then other software programs that helped me to get through this complicated system. That was a very, very difficult time. Because we are working right now. So I started with sketches and now I'm in AI.

Jaime Bautista

I don't know where the hell we are going to. But it's quite complicated and I enjoy it. I am not a professional photographer. However. During my lifetime I used photography to incorporate in my work. Currently I... My daily activities are working for the government, and I work as an architect. I used to work in design. Now I work in construction. So whatever I do in design, now I see the problems in construction. Now I have to blame myself for whatever I do, which is great. So that is a quick introduction of why I'm here. Yeah.

Jaime Bautista

I'm sure you and I hope all of you like to see my background, my profile, and my activities in Instagram. Those pretty much are the thumbnails of my work that I do. I don't know if you can see the background of my screen. That is my ceiling. It's called Organic Mutant Architecture. And those are drawings that I start with using pencil and paper. And then I convert into a more sophisticated presentation.

Jaime Bautista

And I created about probably 1,000 drawings using that kind of style. And then I use photography to... I put in the background. And then to make it look more realistic. Because of my experience in architecture, I said, you know, I don't really like to see the buildings, brick buildings. I like to see more organic buildings.

Jaime Bautista

And as a result of that, that's my work. And I have the individual pieces that I created. I combine with the drawings. I combine with drawings. I combine with the pictures. And I'm using the computers to modify it. And beyond that, I do not know where we are going. But for as long as the humans live in this planet, we innovate and we destroy things.

Jaime Bautista

And whether it's for better or for worse, but we will keep working on this. And I'm very happy to have a lot of tools in my pocket. I... I don't think it's going to diminish the quality. All those tools that we have are quite complex to use it. But it's for our use. And we will see where we go from here. At this moment, I would like to see if I can share some... My screen.

Jaime Bautista

Is that possible that I can do it right now?

You should you should be able to yes okay

Now let's see let me see where is this I share I cannot respond Do you see it? Can you see it?

No.

Not yet. Sorry. Not yet. Well, I think I'm here, but I'm not sure.

When you click the green share button, something should come up asking you what you want to share, and then you'll have to click share once more. I think it's a blue button for the second one where you select the window or screen.

Yeah, right now I'm there. I have to show... Everything is in Google, which I'm going to see. Sorry. Sorry. It's not working. I don't understand how... No, it doesn't allow me to share. Okay. It doesn't look like I'm succeeding. I have the green button here. And in the background, I have my Google Chrome.

Jaime Bautista

I'm not doing it. Well, if it doesn't work, I'm going to have to show you something else.

Okay. Okay.

Okay.! That's embarrassing. Open system preferences. Okay. It doesn't work in here.

Jaime, perhaps we could move on to the next person and give you a chance to take a look at that.

Yeah. Well, actually, if that doesn't work, I don't want to take more of your time. Probably... I don't know. This is one of my... Can you see it, what I'm showing or not? I don't think you're looking. I don't think so.

If you turn off your background, we could probably see that better.

Yeah, no. Okay. Let's... You can move on. I'm going to see if I can manage to share the screen. You can move to the next one, please, Renata.

We will. And we'll come back to you later on. Thank you very much. Thank you. Our next presenter is Cynthia DiDonato.

Hello, everyone. I'm very happy to be here, and I very much enjoyed those people who have spoken before me. And I would probably say many of the things that they have already said. I will, of course, say that painting is not dead, and neither is art. I think that the most important thing is photography.

Allen Hirsh

I am an analog and a digital artist, a Techspressionist, of course. And it's important. Photography is very important to my work. A good deal of it, in fact. What I like to photograph is the mundane. Very commonplace, ordinary things. And manipulate it to my liking. So I'll get right to my work. And let me begin to share.

I'm using my iPad, and it says it's screen mirroring, but it's still churning. I'm going to go ahead and share. I'm going to go ahead and share.

It wants a plug in. Sorry about that.

Okay, let's see. I think it's going to happen. Okay. I have to get rid of this.

Okay, can you see my screen?

Yeah, that's got it.

Great. Yes. Okay. I'll go through these. Here's a first image that I've taken with my iPhone. By the way, that's what I use is my iPhone. And I was able to create this image by manipulating primarily in Procreate, which is an iPad app that's used by a lot of professionals. And with the help of digital paint and that first image, I was able to come up with this piece called Turbulence.

Allen Hirsh

Here's a mundane photograph of some rust. And I used Procreate to manipulate it and create what I call my 2D sculptures. Here's another photograph of the flattening of the curve during the pandemic. I cut it all up, and I manipulated it. And then I eventually came up with this piece, which is going to be in a show this weekend. And I'm going to show you this. This is called Space.

Allen Hirsh

I was at the Natural Museum in my state. And they had some animal skulls. And I took a picture using an app called Paper Camera. And from that, I created what I call Jurassic Passage. Again, this was taken into Procreate and manipulated and painted on. And I took a picture using a computer. A friend sent me some computer plastic pieces he had and said, I bet you could use this. And I said, wow, thank you. I photographed it, and then I created by layering other pictures and creations and created this, which is called Fossilized Circuitry.

Allen Hirsh

This is another thing I like to do is I take pictures of the television screen while I'm watching a program. And then I manipulate that. This I think I manipulated in an app called Decimate, which I guess gives kind of a glitch quality. And then I have a friend who has quite a collection of cameras.

Allen Hirsh

Her father was a photographer, pretty well known. And I began to take pictures. This is the bellows. I think that's what it's called. The bellows of one of the cameras. And then I began to manipulate and blend them. And then I kept blending them and came up with this. Here is Dying Day Lilies that I took a picture of and again took it into several programs. I can't remember what they are now and came up with this piece.

Allen Hirsh

Another favorite of mine is I took a picture of the shingles on my house, which we're in. Pretty bad shape. And I was able to create ground control by manipulating it in Procreate. And also iColorama, which is another app that I'm very fond of. Again, I took this same shingle and added a little color. And then I continued to add color. Then I began to warp sections of the shingle. And I took a few pictures of it and came up with this piece.

Allen Hirsh

Here is some flooring. And I just was so thrilled because it's got such character. And then again I was able to create this sculptural 2D piece. I also like to take pictures of fabric. And I was able again to manipulate the fabric, open it up, and to draw. And created this piece. More fabric. More manipulation of the fabric. I don't have the actual piece of the fabric right here today. And then I manipulated it again. I really enjoy taking pieces and making them into something else. So I constantly, you know, reuse things.

Allen Hirsh

This woman was at an opening wearing this dress. I asked her permission if I could take a picture of it. And she let me do another close-up. And I was able to come up with this particular piece working again in Photoshop. Not Photoshop, sorry. Procreate. And in iColorama. This is one of my failed watercolor pieces.

Allen Hirsh

And I was able to create this using, again, a number of software. This is another piece that was not a failed piece of art. I decided to take a picture of that. And I created this piece, which I later created this short video that was in the Techspressionist show, the virtual Kunstmatrix show. And again, that same piece that I showed you initially that I painted. If I go back to this one. That same piece, after doing that, I was able to create this with it. Again, this I took into iColorama.

Allen Hirsh

And this is, again, the same original piece that I took into Procreate and created this particular image. And then lastly, this image, which I don't have the other images in here. But this is the image that came before. The background that you see there was from the Botanical Center. There were some plants there. And I believe that it was an aloe plant, a huge aloe plant, which I manipulated. And then I actually painted in the figure that you see here.

Allen Hirsh

And this is my last piece.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Cynthia. Cynthia Beth Rubin is our next presenter. Okay, great.

I'm going to jump right into screen share. Because I have a lot of images. So I hope everybody can see this. Unfortunately, my somehow my screen, I'm not seeing my own words here. Because I have the people over at the side. I hate when that happens. But if other people can see it, I'm just going to go ahead. So I'm interested in the whole idea of photography as a frozen moment. And as a form of note taking. And creating relations. But as a former painter, I have to say, as a real painter. I still am a painter. I'm just painting with photography. So for me, I'm kind of a fake to say I'm a photographer. I take these elements and I use them. And my goal is to think about creating different levels of meaning. And destroying in a way the frozen moment of photography. Creating a new series of here and nows out of the photography.

Cynthia Beth Rubin

So for many, many years. People know I started before scanning. Before when very basic photography came in eventually to working with the computer. And so for many years, I did these compositing, traveling, taking a lot of pictures. And trying to do this. Experience the moment. Experience the place.

Cynthia Beth Rubin

Across time and place. And then I did my, you know, jumping ahead, my 40-year series where I found drawings that I had done in 1968. And went back to the same place. And combined them. So I wasn't drawing on top of photographs. I was putting photographs on top of drawings. And I took this idea to when I had an artist residency in Arles-sur-Tec.

Cynthia Beth Rubin

Where I really just wanted to get away. And I wanted to have a free place to live in the south of France. Although it wasn't like the best town in the world. And so but I had to do something related to the place. So I went out and drew with my little portable Wacom tablet every day. And then I took a picture. And then I went back and combined them. And did a whole series of these every day. I'm not going to show you too many. This one particular piece is interesting because at the end of my stay, the mayor asked me to do something about the Jewish history of the town. And the Jewish doctors who nearby there was a wonderful spa town in Middle Ages and early like up to the time of the expulsion.

Cynthia Beth Rubin

And the Jewish doctors were not allowed to live in the spa town. So they lived on this street which oddly was the most preserved street in the town. Nobody had ever moved there. So I kind of tried to give this idea of past and present and painting on top of the rocks. I have this whole other side of my life of cultural heritage. And I've been working on a project with Yona Vera on the Lower East Side over many years. There's an old synagogue that we've been working on. And she was really into the idea of the zodiac. So I was like, oh, I don't care about zodiacs, but I care about the Lower East Side history. So we started doing this project where we would combine her paintings, the original iconography, and photography. And I was like, oh, I don't care about the zodiac. But I care about the Lower East Side history.

Cynthia Beth Rubin

And we eventually decided to make an interactive web piece. And this is really cool. It involves making little videos. And so some of these, these are still images. We talk about making video out of still images. Really short still images.

Videos of still images.

That's one of my favorites with morphing. And here's this. So the whole story of coming to America. Now, recently, Yona said, let's do a window installation. And the Hubble telescope images and the web images had just come out. So zodiacs, let's work with the idea of these images. And, you know, here they are. People have probably seen how wonderful they are. These images in themselves are composites of what came from Hubble and what came from web and their public domain. And, of course, I took one and manipulated it further. And a lot of people know I've been working with plankton for a long time. This is my own plankton filming.

Cynthia Beth Rubin

An early image with plankton that I did myself. And just showing you one of my students how we get the plankton. This was a student off the docks throwing a net in. And I just decided it was a good time to make sure I don't forget the oceanographers because I couldn't work with plankton without the oceanographers. I'm big on showing your collaborators. So what happened is that one undergrad engineering student started building this incredible do it yourself imaging thing to collaborate with. And he did the most wonderful collecting of plankton images, which are totally useless for the scientists because they're not precise enough. It's like not totally. I would say somewhat useless for his eye. But they don't give a whole lot of precise information. But for me, they were really gorgeous. Okay.

Cynthia Beth Rubin

Totally differently. I started using some AI because I was doing a whole ancestors exhibition for people. And I got this horrible blurry image. And I took it into gigapixel. And I'm like, wow. AI is fabulous. And so I applied it to the plankton. And I'm almost done. And now this is not yet my finished image because I just sent it out to be printed and I'm going to draw on it. But where I am right now is combining the satellite, the telescope images, and the plankton. And I have a couple versions going.

Cynthia Beth Rubin

And I feel like, you know, years ago I never would have used any of these. I never would have used anybody else's photography. Ever. I always had to experience myself. I never would have used something like AI. I have to do my own manipulation. I know Photoshop so well I can do anything. But now I'm just past that. I just want to get the image out. So that's what I have.

Cynthia Beth Rubin

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Cynthia. It's a real pleasure to see such recent work of yours and how it's evolving. I like the combination of the plankton with the space image. Not done yet. It's coming. Okay. Now we have a presentation by Colin Goldberg.

Thanks, Renata.

So I'm going to jump right in. Basically, this work kind of addresses the first question about painting being dead. It's a series of mine that incorporates photographic elements within the context of drawing and painting. And these works are technically informed by pop era artists such as Warhol and Rauschenberg, who were among the first to incorporate photo silkscreen elements into their paintings. And while these artists largely used appropriated imagery, my works from this series are based on original photographs, relevant to the world of painting. And I'm going to talk about some of the things that I've done in my life that are relevant to my personal experiences. So in this way, these works document an autobiographical narrative.

Colin Goldberg

In 1992, I did an internship working as a studio assistant for an artist named Steve Miller, who's on the top left. His studio is a renovated potato barn in Sagaponack, New York, on Long Island. And it was formerly the studio of the painter Frank Stella. You can see some of the silkscreen equipment in the back. So over the course of the internship, I learned screen printing from a fellow assistant, Robert Bardin, who's on the top right, who printed for Warhol for many years.

Colin Goldberg

When I returned to school after the internship, I applied this newfound screen printing skill in an independent study and created some of my own photo silkscreens in the darkroom. I burned the screens from using an enlarger and they were based on scanned pictures I took with a film camera. So this is an early one. I used Photoshop, early version of Photoshop. I used Photoshop, early version of Photoshop to generate the halftones. And this piece is a pastel and silkscreen work from this time period, 1994, based on images of the Susquehanna River. Here's another one from that time period based on photos of icicles. It's a piece on canvas about four feet wide.

Colin Goldberg

This one here is based on a photo I took of Jackson Pollock's paint splattered floorboards. And the print of this work is in the permanent collection of the Pollock Craftsman. And this is a picture of the you can see some of the gestural painting done with enamel that's sort of over the top. So after I finished my undergraduate studies, I moved to New York. And this is a bunch of pieces that I created when I was living downtown in the East Village. They were made in 1998. And they're portraits that are based on screen grabs from iVisit, which is one of the first desktop video conferencing programs. So these works were created in collaboration with the University of New York. And I had a collaboration with the subjects who were individuals that I met on the platform from various countries around the world.

Colin Goldberg

So it's sort of anticipated a little bit. The Techspressionism project in a way. The screen grabs were vectorized, and then they were completed as digital drawings in Illustrator. The painting here shown on the left is entitled Pollock Studio. It was created in 2005 while I was pursuing my MFA in computer art at Bowling Green State University in Ohio. And I was working on this project for a couple of years. And it incorporates photos I took of Pollock's studio and backyard in Springs, New York. The original photos are shown to the right of the painting. And this is one of my earliest paintings incorporating digital printmaking. So the photographs were actually printed directly on top of the painted surface using a pigment-based printer before the work was stretched. And this piece was accepted into the permanent public collection of the Pollock-Krasner House in 2005.

Colin Goldberg

And it was my first painting accepted into a public collection. Here's another work from this period, which is a laser etched wood panel with a pigment transfer. The work depicts an overpass in Michigan. And the original photograph was taken with a Palm Trejo smartphone in 2006. Here's another Michigan overpass laser etching.

Colin Goldberg

After graduate school, I began refining my use of digital overprinting in combination with painting and drawing. Here's a small painting from this time period. Which juxtaposes photographic, formal, and hand-painted elements. And in 2013, I was awarded a Pollock-Krasner Foundation grant. I used a portion of the funding to purchase this large format printer, which allowed me to work at a larger scale. So in the interest of time, I'm quickly going to share a series of paintings and works on paper from this time period through the present in chronological order.

Colin Goldberg

Here's another photo from 2006. This set of four large paintings was created in the beginning of the pandemic. It incorporates photos taken at one of Long Island's first drive-through COVID testing facilities. Here's an installation view of these works installed at the Museum of Contemporary Art. In 2021.

Colin Goldberg

My most recent work in this series are experimental plotter drawings based on photos taken in Vermont's Green Mountain National Forest where I live with my family. This is a pen and ink drawing on paper from this series and I'm going to close with this pencil drawing on paper based on a photo taken of the same nearby wetland area. I'd like to thank Tommy and Renata for organizing this salon as well as the other presenting artists for sharing their work and all in attendance this evening.

Thank you very much Colin for sharing your work. It looks beautiful. Finally, sorry not finally, I have a recorded presentation from Nina Sobell so I'm going to share my screen.

Okay.

I'm not set up to share it properly. My apologies. Colin, would you be able to screen it for us please?

Yeah, let me pull

It up here. Actually, you know what, let me just make sure I'm sharing audio too.

Okay.

Okay. The Confluence of Photography with Digital Media and an Investigation into the Creative Process. I do everything on my iPhone, glitching and using apps that affect the original source photos taken. I would say that photography is not dead. But being continually modified and expanded upon. At times, the apps I use do not call for photos at all. Switching back and forth, I move forward experimentally.

Nina Sobell

The following is an excerpt from the video Unseen Unheard 2020, which is also a printed edition. It is precisely the confluence of photography with digital media.

Thank you.

My face mixed with my Chinese zodiac animal in preparation for a new NFT project. From photos and videos of a spider to using AI, creating a new still to express capture, anxiety, and the fight for freedom. From stills to movement using apps and AI. To the confluence of photographic video and a new animated AI.

Nina Sobell

From experimenting with Tomiko Teal's and P's augmented reality app, Rpoiz, to glitching photo using an app with a spider and a veil as effects, dissolved over a photo of a glitched air vent hole. Under the veil of the sea, catch me. It's a discovered veil effect on an app. Made by using an AI app with no original source material.

Nina Sobell

All right. All right. All right. All right.

Thank you very much, Nina. And thank you for calling your quick response there.

Sure thing.

Lastly, we're going to have a presentation from my co-host, Tommy Mintz. And when Tommy's done, I'm going to ask him if he could lead you into the discussion that we're going to have.

I'm going to try to, let's

See if I can share a screen on my iPad while continuing to have audio through the screen that I'm looking at you on. So, gosh, it's such an honor to. To wrap up this discussion. And I have so many sort of responses swimming around in my head about the way that maybe the language of photography has come to interpermeate many directions. But also seem to have many interconnections within maybe even the sort of like outermost fringes of a direction. I'm thinking of Tukoi's.

Tommy Mintz

Cyanotype and Van Dyck brown prints, which are sort of this wonderful. Really ancient process almost compared to the digital screens that a lot of stuff is on today. The language, however, that's on these screens still reflects this sort of maybe chemical process that I think we've all. Made part of our visual language. And I'm looking at the Jamie's. I'm a background there and the sort of similarity of line drawing.

Tommy Mintz

AI, the sort of what we feed into this system and where it comes from is this. The set of techniques and technologies that have evolved together, maybe. So I'm showing a little animated GIF I made algorithmically of a series of photographs compared for difference. And. The. Movement, whatever is different shows up in white. Whatever is the same is just doesn't show up as black. So this is just a very simple Python program that you're seeing the different positions of the squeegee guy squeegeeing off.

Tommy Mintz

The top of a. Of a bar on West Third Street. I'm going to. This is exciting. I'm glitching for a moment here. I was hoping to show you. Clyde. I'm going to show you. I was mentioning this screen technology that's happening today and how. It's becoming pervasive. Within.

I don't know if

I could pinch to zoom. Can I? Oh, I'm sorry, people. I was hoping to pinch and zoom and show you the resolution on this enormous screen. This is in the Gaussian gallery. Currently, this is hers. Fisher. And it's. It's. Super high resolution. L.E.D. Screen. That's gosh. You know, what's that? Fifteen feet tall. Somebody do it in meters for me. Twenty four feet wide. And it's driven by some giant bank of computers behind the wall. But it really blows your mind and makes you think about an expand. Like, what can we do with this visual language of photography now that it's digital, now that there's an added to it? And Earth Fisher, his work is about sort of cataloging.

Tommy Mintz

And utilizing AI to aggregate databases of images and present them. And it's sort of like fascinating in many levels. So photography functioning in other ways. This is Hank Willis Thomas. Also right up the block here in Chelsea. These are pictures that are activated by taking a flash photo with the picture. So really, once again, the language of photography. Being this structure within which we're sort of creating.

Tommy Mintz

Many sort of really extraordinary overlapping. I'm going to try to stop sharing as I'm talking, and I know I can't do that. There we go. Interpenetrating visual. Evolutions that have occurred within this very short time period of. Very rapid expansion of technology. I think is something that is hard to.

Tommy Mintz

Really take stock of until it's happened a little bit in the past. But I think we're really uncovering a lot of very interesting things at this moment that AI really has become our newest tool within this tool set. I want to consider myself a lens based visual artist. So. Gosh. Renata, did you have.

Tommy Mintz

A response that you were hoping to share as well or.

There's one thing I think. Yeah. Thanks for asking Tommy. There's one thing I neglected to mention, which is that we were going to give Jaime a chance to screen share. Yes.

Thank you.

The video is going to be up in the next few minutes. So you can see that I'm going to just use the red space to make it here. So you can see that I'm going to just use the red space to make it here. And of course, I'm going to work on the color of the screen. And I'm going to make it like the color of the screen. And I'm going to make it like the color of the screen. And I'm going to make it like the color of the screen. And I'm going to make it like the color of the screen. And I'm going to make it like the color of the screen. And I'm going to make it like the color of the screen.

Jaime Bautista

I'm sharing. I have no idea what happened to this. I don't have the sharing option. I don't have the sharing option. Something maybe you have to close from your site? The green option is no longer available for me.

I just made you a co-host. I don't know if that makes any difference. Is it there for you now?

I don't have the option to share it at all. The green option disappeared. The green button is not there. It's no longer there. Yeah. That's fine. Yeah. There is no choice for me.

Do you have the whole bottom menu? Yes.

I have the new security, the more and leave the option. But that's as far as I go. The green option is no longer available.

Is it possible that you could close some of the windows there and that maybe it's behind a window? Yeah.

I have minimized that one and then let me see. Yeah. You minimize that one. I can see everything except in the green option. All right. There's not much I can do, I guess.

Ah.

It came back. Now I have over here several options. Desktop. Chrome. Google Chrome. That's what I'm going to choose. Google Chrome because that's where I have my options. Any luck? Can you see it or not?

And then use one more button. Yeah. Hit share at the bottom of that window once you select the Google Chrome window and then that should bring it up hopefully.

Okay.

Yeah. That's all there. Unfortunately, share screen. Desktop. Open.

Nothing?

Not yet.

Is there a blue share button that appears when you're given the options of what you want to share? Yeah. Down at the bottom right? Yes.

That's correct. And I said open system preferences and the other one is cancel. So when I click the blue screen, it says allow Zoom to share your screen. It's open preferences, security.

Oh, okay.

And then that's the end of it.

Yeah. Probably something in your security settings is preventing you from sharing.

And most likely where do I go with security?

But you can all do that in an event and it's your own business. It's not like you can't have it in an event. You can't have it in an event. It's not like you can't have it in an event.

It's not like you can't have it in an event. It's not like you can't have it in an event. It's not like you can't have it in an event. It's not like you can't have it in an event. It's not like you can't have it in an event. I don't understand this. Why is it showing me that option that I need to open the preferences? I open the preferences and everything is OK. All right. Seems like that's it.

Well, if you go into System Preferences and Security, you should see there's checkboxes next to different program names. And you might need to put a check next to Zoom, allowing it to show your screen somewhere in that depth of the system preferences. It might open up to that spot. And then you need to scroll within a little scroll bar mini window there.

Yeah, I'm right there.

Find Zoom, click that checkbox, then say OK, OK, OK, OK a couple of times.

Might have to click the lock to make changes.

Ooh, correct. There's a lock in the lower left. So you might need to click and type in a password even.

Yeah. And then click on the little box with Zoom. And click on the little tick box with Zoom. And that's where I think you should be finding.

Yeah, that's where I clicked on, maybe.

Because we just had to do this in class today.

So nothing, right? I don't see any other option to click it. Other than the original video, it should be the touch. It said use elements. Well, it's showing moving controls, controlling bytes.

I think maybe we should move on.

Sorry to say. Yeah.

OK, seems like now I'm going to try again. OK. No. I guess you can go ahead and proceed with your settings, with your schedule. No,

Your talk before that was very interesting. So thank you for that. Yeah.

And you're definitely, you know, more than welcome to join us again. And a lot of times we do have sort of a general open share. So, you know, once the, all the screen sharing, technical issues get worked out, we would love to have you back and, you know, see what you're working on. I'll post a link to your site though, again, in the...

So people can check your work out on their own okay yeah I will share with you the link and then the links that I have probably that might be helpful to and if you if you wish to look at it other than that I guess I'm sorry about this I don't know have to figure out what went wrong with this my system thank you very much and thank you for all the participants and you as an organizers as an expression thank you

Thank you tommy do you want to continue

So I think we firmly answered the question that photography is not dead right I mean there's a silly question to propose in the first place but it's not what it ever was historically it's continued to evolve right and I think it's really interesting to sort of consider once again this sort of interconnection between the practices we just viewed and I really think it's lovely to sort of see how the vocabulary I'm sort of hesitating to figure out the right word of how to describe what it is that the camera has lent us as artists working within this space is it a how would you describe that renata what would you describe I

Mean

I know you use some photographic methodologies within your brushes but what does that add to your work what would you how would you describe that

For me I think the photographs are kind of shorthand they work they work almost instantly if you have the ability to take a digital photograph it's much different than waiting for it to develop in the dark room so they become like a shorthand for I sometimes just take pictures to remind myself of things that I've that I want to go back to or like I thought you showing us the big screen in the gagosian gallery was that you know a really good illustration of what clive mentioned in terms of the ubiquity of those large format screens becoming better and better in resolution and cheaper and cheaper in price

If you want to see what's coming up in a few years I don't want to make an advertisement because there'll be other competitors but samsung has a new technology called the wall they're starting to market this year it's easy easy to look up and that's probably an example of it there in gregorian but the prices are starting to come down they're still at kind of professional level prices right now but they were you know from a million dollars to a hundred thousand dollars just a big jump in a short time in three or four years they come down to consumer prices and people are going to have these in their homes and so I don't really care so much about that and as I said there's going to be a negative aspect to do with the marketing but for us, to find a way to get some of these digital images into people's homes and on the walls of more normal galleries, it's going to be a huge opportunity change in a very short time.

Clive Holden

And we should be planning for it in our art practices. Given what this group is interested in, it's going to be a big deal. It's very unlikely not to happen. So it's worth thinking about three, four, five years down the road, certainly 10 years down the road, probably more like five. Because at a certain point, the price just starts to plummet on these things.

It reminds me a little bit of when you talk about the advertising potential. It reminds me of Blade Runner.

Yeah. Yeah. Sure.

Yeah.

So, I mean, one of the things that I... I like to think about historically are the really popular uses of photography. There is this trend, gosh, I want to say in 1850-something, with albumen prints coming out. You could make very cheap photographs, mount them on cardboard, and people made pictures of themselves to leave as visiting cards. I think they were called carte de visites.

Tommy Mintz

And now we have PFPs, which are these profile pictures that people use to represent themselves. But maybe AI generated...

I think there's a lot of interesting parallels of the changes

Of what we think about we want to sort of represent ourselves as and how we use technology to do that. That's kind of scary to me when we think about the introduction to Fahrenheit 451, where they have these three walls covered in screens, you know, and nothing is left on paper. And here I'm just sort of musing and rambling a little bit. But I do think that... There's a really interesting moment of clarity that we have. You know, here we're transitioning into this very screen-based representation of ideas and self.

Tommy Mintz

You know, and the lens is very much part of that translation, right, and being conscious of the distortions. Bernardo is talking about, really, the racial overtones of some of these distortions that the lens creates. Among many other concerns that we sort of... You know, we really have to bring into AI. You know, I think as artists, we're some of the vanguard always into the, you know, roughest sort of ideas and playing through them. So I think it's really great to sort of have this recorded and we could look back upon this sort of group of work in a few years, too.

Tommy Mintz

I don't want to dominate the conversation. I know that's how Zoom works. So I'd love to hear any of the participants who want to chime in or any listeners who haven't said anything. I see some mics are unmuted. I'm going to mute mine.

So one of my observations, just from the diversity of the visual presentations, it almost feels like you didn't really share photography. You shared photographic technique as part of a greater sense of making imagery. So I was kind of... I'm curious as to... Because, I mean, I've done that. I, you know, that was kind of my foray into this whole thing was starting with a camera.

Michael Pierre Price

And I felt intimidated by those people who were, you know, kind of classic photographers. But I like the manipulation. I liked seeing what each one of you has done in stretching from just like, here's an image. It's like, man, you guys... All had different techniques of what those steps. And essentially, when you look at the final image, a lot of these, if you didn't know you had used photography as a step, you wouldn't even know that. So I'm just kind of curious, you know, what really is photography anymore?

It's clearly merged with other things, you know. Like, there's more people taking... Lens-based images than ever before, you know. And good ones. You can make a decent quality photograph now with an incredibly expensive camera. I have an old Android phone. It's about four years old. It's very... Would be practically free now. And, you know, it takes a really good photo. And that's a big change. Vernita, I'm also interested in what you were saying about the class aspect of the beginnings of photography and, you know, in these... Okay. These quotes. Big quotes come out of Paris, a lot of them. And you seem to like... If you've read about that, it's interesting to compare that to today. Can you expand a bit on that? You were talking about the expense and the bourgeoisie class of being able to take a photograph.

Yes. Well, you know, initially, you needed... In order to see a photograph, you needed a means to develop it. And the chemicals in the space were just things that a poor person could not afford. When you are struggling to feed children, you don't have... A room that you can dedicate specifically to something that isn't immediately bringing in money. You know, you don't have the money to, instead of buy baby's milk or diapers or whatever, for the care of your children to invest in chemicals to develop. And on top of that, photography was created basically to obliterate.

Verneda Lights

Documentation of people of color. You know, to take three quarters of the planet and say, oh, they don't matter, they're just noise. We're going to obliterate them and glorify and make as white as we possibly can every white person we see in the photograph. To, you know, design is strategy made visible. And I think that this is... Photography is an excellent example of something that has magnificent use. No doubt about it. But it was created for nefarious ends.

Verneda Lights

You know, to shore up the visibility of white people in the world. To secure the documentation of white Western civilization. They wouldn't come right out and say that. But that was the net goal. And that was the net effect of the decisions they made in limiting their ability to capture people of color. And the fact that this problem remained until 1990.

Verneda Lights

You know, Kodak used the Shirley card where they had the very dark black person and the very white white person. And they skewed everything in favor of the very white white person. You know, that persisted until 1990. And it's awful. But, you know, technology being what it is, it's a great leveler of people. You know, it's a great leveler of culture.

Verneda Lights

You had the cell phones. We had these cell phones, very inexpensive cell phones, you know. And the ability to print at home. You can manipulate your own color mixes. And I remember being so frustrated in 2002 when I had to create my own... I had to create my own color palette for people of color. I wanted to take...

Verneda Lights

Do digital paintings of my younger brothers who were fully grown at that point in time. But I wanted baby pictures of them that were in color, not black and white. And I had to create my own palette and my own brushes. And I thought that was just so pathetic. When we had... I mean, we'd put a man on the moon already.

Verneda Lights

And had an international space station and all that. And we still cannot rightly and accurately present to the world what we look like here on planet Earth. You know? So it is distressing. The history of photography. But I'm glad to be functioning in this space. You know, as a retired physician, someone who is dedicated to representing humanity. And dedicated to dealing with human anatomy. Which is, you know, this. Skin is human anatomy. And all this diaspora, you know? And it's a battle. It really is. Because it's so recently that we've had this freedom. So I feel as if the vistas are wide open for me now. And I'm able to speak without a restricted vocabulary.

Verneda Lights

I think it's such a crime to restrict. To intentionally restrict. On an industrial level. What an entire class of people can say. You know? It's like you're silencing them.

And you want to do so.

You know? So art has been used for nefarious purposes. But now that we have the tools at our disposal. We have the artificial intelligence. That we can feed into and correct. For its inability to capture faces. And its inability to deal with melanin. You know? Melanin is a difficult molecule. But it's not impossible to render black complexions in a manner that is realistic. Using the tools at our disposal. So I feel in many ways liberated. In this space. And I. I feel empowered. To teach.

Verneda Lights

And show. You know? Demonstrate to those around me. How far we need to go. Not necessarily how far we've come. But how much further we need to go.

It's an important topic. There's no question about it. I remember thinking I was working with video and movie film. Around the late 90s. And I began to realize that the color palettes are both very important. And very different. They're shifting over towards video. And there was this predominant brick red. That was very dominant. And there was more of a fire engine red in video. It was coming not from Europe. But from Asia. The yellows were more lemon yellow. Coming from the video. And it was a big shift in palette. And. But what you're talking about is more crucial.

Clive Holden

And it affected millions and millions of people. And excluded them from things. So it's important for people like you to be involved. Using these new tools. It's actually crucial. Politically crucial. So speaking as a very white Irish person. So.

I'm Irish. My family. It's around.

They show up on DNA testing.

Yeah.

We have hands up from Patrick. And also.

Yeah. Oh. Okay. Yeah. You know what? I'm sorry. I think things went on. I lost my train of thought.

How about Lee? You had your hand up.

Two responses to a couple of things I heard. First of all, Michael talking about how. Photography may not be photography anymore. I heard that same discussion way back in the. In the late 50s, early 60s, especially as it related to Jackson Pollock, that painting wasn't painting anymore. It wasn't painting because he didn't use a paintbrush. That he threw the paint out of the bucket. That's not painting. And there was huge international debate on that subject. And it just expanded through the 60s when you got into the hippie era. The hippies didn't hesitate to make paintings out of anything they could get their hands on. And you got up to the light and space era in California. And the plastics came in. Here they were using plastic, not paint. They were using a brush often, but it didn't have paint on the end of it.

Lee Musgrave

It had liquid plastic. And the whole conversation started again about what is painting. And then to... Bernadette's comment reminds me of Nat King Cole. I'm not sure how many of you on the East Coast know this story. But Nat King Cole, wonderful individual, was a very black man. And when he got his own TV program, it was a color program. It did not work out. They forced him to put white, not white, but light-skinned makeup on. So you could see his... His facial features. Because the way the system had been set up, as she's pointed out, it didn't adjust for his particular skin tone. It made him look even blacker than he already was. And you couldn't see him. So a whole different technology had to be developed for television.

Lee Musgrave

Now, in relation to that, I'm originally from Australia. And when I would go back to Australia on visits, and I would take colored slides with me, there was one time that I took a roll with me that hadn't been developed. I didn't have time to develop it. Back in the 60s and 70s, colored slides were the main source of communicating in photography. So I took this undeveloped roll to Australia, and I was going to have it developed there. And they came flying out of the darkroom, and they said, oh, this, you brought this from America. I said, yeah, why? And they said, well, it's predominantly blue. Everything that comes out of America that isn't developed has this overriding shade of blue in all of them. That was the first time I had ever heard that. Australia and England and probably Europe, their film thing was set up differently and pushed toward one color that was not blue.

Lee Musgrave

I was really surprised to hear that. And I wonder if this is true with, with computers. You know, when I look at images of my work on my computer, and then I go look at images on my son's computer, I've noticed they don't look the same from computer to computer. So here I spend all this time trying to get just the color right on my work. Might be meaningless by the time it gets to a big wall, like you showed in the gallery there. You know, by the time my work gets blown up thin, I'll have no idea what the color might be like.

Well, I mean, that's, that's why, you know, professional displays have, have their own built-in color emitters and that sort of thing that, you know, that, that measure the color because, you know, displays are, are different. You know, so it's, yeah. And the thing, the thing that's strange about this is that color is subjective in the first place. So the green that, the green that you see, isn't the green that I see, you know? And so, so basically it's just a matter of, you know, just seeing what the, what the wavelength, the profile is for a given thing. And then if we want to get even crazier, I say that the, you know, that the, that the retina display is aptly named because of the fact that it has red, red, green, and blue dots, which are designed for our cones. You know, I mean, this would be totally, our displays would be totally different if they were made for cats.

Patrick Lichty

And of course I'm going to say cats, but, you know, it's just, you know, it'd be more towards, you know, violet and violet and yellow. You know? And so these, these things I find, you know, incredibly interesting. So, and then how that subjectivity of the human sensibility, you know, translates into things like race and class and nationality and all these things, you know, that's definitely interesting.

I'm just getting a note. Thank you very much, Patrick and Lee. But I'm getting a note from Colin that we're kind of running late on the recording. I feel like a host who's had a very successful party that's going over time. So if we could stop the recording and those who would like to stay can hang around.

Thank you, Renata. Yeah. Anyone who wants to is more than welcome to, to stick around for the after party slash advisory board meeting where we'll make an attempt to pick a subject for the next salon. Okay. So I'm also pasting into the chat in case you weren't here in the beginning, three links to open calls through the Museum of Contemporary Art, Long Island slash Patchogue Arts Council. The curator there, Beth Giacummo, recently became listed as one of the artists in the Expressionist Artist Index. And she has extended the deadline for these calls through October 6th. So these are basically large projections, an opportunity to have your work projected, on various buildings in the area. And, you know, she's excited to, to, to review some submissions. So with that, I'd like to thank Renata and Tommy for moderating, for putting the list of artists together, curating and, you know, the group and, and really, you know, developing a thought provoking presentation.

Colin Goldberg

And also to all of the other artists involved in presenting your work. And, you know, thank you. Hope to see you all next time. So without further ado, I am going to stop the recording in T minus three, two, one, and cut.