Salon 39 // Old-School Open Mic: OBSOLESCENCE

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome everyone to our Techspressionist virtual salon here on the 16th of March, just after the odds of March. If you are Caesar, I'm sorry. Sorry. But with that, I'm your moderator, Davonte Bradley. And joining me today is a whole slew of wonderful, interesting and creative artists. Some of us here have been around for quite a while. Other some other guests here are probably this might be their first. So if you're new here, welcome.

Davonte Bradley

We're not crazy. Not that crazy. Maybe a little crazy. Mostly very, very nerdy and very intellectual have some very deep discussions, which is going to segue into what we're doing today. Having a very deep discussion. Today we actually are doing our salon a little differently, whereas our normal setup is to have a between two or three presenters artists present their work. And we'll normally have a Q&A session. But. Today we're doing kind of a first where we actually have a discussion topic for the salon.

Davonte Bradley

And that today's topic was voted on to be obsolescence or obsolescence. Obsolescence. Ash probably should have looked into how to pronounce that.

Obsolescence.

English is hard, by the way.

It is. Yeah, I once said superfluous to someone when I was younger. And they were like, I'm not sure what you're talking about. And I went, what? And it's superfluous. But, you know, if you've read it and haven't said it, that's how you learn.

I was actually one of those people, too, that I also said superfluous. But that just means you learned that word from reading rather than hearing it from somebody. That's right.

Yeah.

In any case, so to kick things off. Now, this is going to be kind of a controlled discussion, so nobody's going to be talking over each other. So how this should play out, how imagining things is that I'll get things going and then one person will share their thoughts and then the next person will share their thoughts and back and forth like that. Kind of more like a controlled organic conversation.

Davonte Bradley

If that makes sense. Which I hope it does. But I have a question to actually kick things off that I prepared. Just for this occasion. So, that being said, what is, what does it mean to be, for something to be obsolete? We all know that, you know, dictionary definitions say one thing. Dictionaries report the common usage of a term. But common usages don't always reflect, you know, what the core idea behind an idea is.

Davonte Bradley

But kind of as a springboard, that's usually what we use. It's the first thing that we go to. So we have it as both an adjective and as a verb. And to be obsolete is to cause a product or idea to be or become obsolete by replacing it with something new. As in the case of, you know, we're trying to stimulate the business by obsoleting last year's designs. Or in the case, another case, no longer produced or used. Something that's out of date. The disposal of old and obsolete machinery.

Davonte Bradley

Now, that kind of scratches the surface of what this idea actually means. Especially for artists that use, one, that, you know, have maybe some familiarity with the traditional art space. And two, in the context of technology. Because a lot of us actually use both. So what does obsolescence or being obsolete mean? What does it mean for us?

Davonte Bradley

I'm assuming everyone's ruminating on it. I can see the pensive stares.

I'll take, this is David, I'll take a crack at it. I actually really never thought about it until five minutes ago. And artists could have a lot of fun with this. Because something that, an obsolete, something that would be considered obsolete. Like a radio tube. Is like precious to an audiophile. Right? And it could be used in, it could be used as art. Or some type of piece of technology could actually be used for something. Or mean something. Or be put in a museum to be remembered. Now, maybe people aren't buying it anymore. But it is still technology. How do you even define technology?

David Bloom

It just creates a really bunch of different interesting questions that I've never thought about before. So I thank you for raising the issue.

You're welcome. And that's kind of the thing with words in general or ideas. A lot of times we kind of take for granted how deep something actually is. Because we're just used to dealing with kind of surface level interpretations. It helps with conversations. But when you really get down to it, there's a lot of interesting things that pop up. As a result of trying to dig a little deeper.

Davonte Bradley

Tommy. Oh, yes, Cynthia.

My concern. Answering my concern all along. Not just mentioning something that is my art. But, you know, these things are gone. Will this be gone? One day. Will the formats that I see. Save my images in. Will there be other formats and they may abandon. Let's say the JPEG or the PNG or the TIFF. Where do we go from there in preserving our digital images and our art? And I think it's very important consideration for us. I'm sure it's for the world because we want to save whether it's digital archives in a museum. Or information or history books that may eventually.

Allen Hirsh

Be so old. They can't be used. So that whole issue of saving and moving on. Transferring being able to transfer. What we have. To something else. And then of course, what happens to it. When we transfer it, but then getting back to what David said that may. Get us to create. Another piece of art. With that art. That is obsolete or. Gets transferred and changed. With that. Keep quiet.

There's. The whole idea to just regarding what, what does it mean to be gone? Right? Like I'm sure that there could be somebody that attends or watches this recording afterwards, and they'll see your floppy disk, and they won't recognize what that is. They'll probably have no idea what you just held up. It's like, what is that, a piece of cheese?

Davonte Bradley

But when we say it's gone, I think in a lot of cases what we're saying is that thing, thing, albeit like unless like all of them are wiped out of existence, it's gone from regular usage. And when things go away from regular usage, you know, of course support stops for that thing, because it's no longer regular usage most people have moved on to the next. Thing. And that keeps going perpetually on and on and on. And so you have this long list of things that they still exist in some capacity. It's just that the things that allowed them to work in the first place, or the way that they used to work, it's no longer easily accessible, or it's not as accessible as it once was. It still exists, still potentially workable. It's just, there's a lot more effort that is involved with keeping you, like, stay using those things.

I mean, if you think about... Yeah. Art restoration and the need to preserve art that's been affected by the elements in whatever way, I mean, you can easily think down the road there's going to need to be art restoration in the digital world as well, based on exactly what Cynthia was just talking about.

Michael Pierre Price

I mean, in the past, you know, being old enough that I grew up in a purely analog world before digital became really the prominent mode, when things got upgraded or we thought was obsolete, you still had ways to tinker with them based on the new upgrades. And, you know, think about cars and things like that, is that today, the digital world is not as good as it used to be. And so I think that's a big part of that. A lot step back and use a previous version of Photoshop, if you go far enough back or something else. And so we've kind of painted ourselves into this direction that we're headed in as a society

Where you just, you don't have the easy, that

There's not in a digital world, there's not the equivalent of what was in the analog world where you made little baby steps that easily to what went on before and I think that's gonna I mean I know a whole lot of people have been studying the whole issue with what sorts of formats moving into the future are going to survive and move forward I'm not so worried about that because I think that's going to happen as we go along there's going to be new generations saying okay there's previous generations of artwork sitting in the cloud or in on discs or whatever it is and if all of a sudden now we've made some transformational evolutionary change in the way we experience art I think a lot of those things are going to get you moved forward in what in whatever transitional formats there may come about

I can't help but think about one you brought up the issue of backwards compatibility is essentially what that is like having that step before to accommodate you know the newer technology like when vhs has had dvd players attached to them or with video game consoles being able to travel with the games from before that kind of idea and with computers file formats haven't changed too much over the years like those have been pretty stable but I can't help but imagining like the digital artistic equivalent of like something along the lines of like maybe digital patina it's like we know like the greg the gregsian sculptures they a lot of them used to be painted right and all of them lost their color because over the years the paint was just not there but we still have the marble underneath and we still consider it like this is still a great work of art even though it was not in its original state and I'm just wondering like what would look like for art that is not analog?

Davonte Bradley

Like, what does that look like for digital art? Like, would we, like, if we booted up into whatever modern technology that we have, or whatever modern pieces of ways of experience it, and we start noticing, like, there's data degradation, or there's actual glitches as a result of the data aging, and, you know, it's like, would we also take into, like, would we also come to appreciate that kind of thing happening?

Davonte Bradley

And I know there actually are some artists that, like, they take that to the extreme already, like, I'm going to pass this file back and forth and back and forth and see what the end result looks like. And after, you know, because data is lost after each exchange. And you know, I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not, but I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. The original image gets changed subtly over time as the pixels stop copying correctly, because it's not a perfect process.

Davonte Bradley

So, I don't know, it's fun trying to think about what that would look like.

I would say, you know, my wife is a digital artist. She does web work and that type type of work, but fine art. And this is an issue that they've been dealing with forever because, you know, PHP on the server will change and your piece no longer works and you have to go back and hopefully rebuild it. Or your piece is constructed in such a way that it's referring to URLs and pulling in data from other places and those places disappear or no longer exist. And so the piece just breaks down. So, you know, on a certain level you can talk about some art being ephemeral, so that only it doesn't, it isn't going to last. The Dadaists built, made ephemeral art that we're still trying to hold on to, you know, it's made with newspapers and stuff that they wanted to break down and die, and we're still trying to keep, you know, put chemicals on it.

Lee Day

Them from breaking down and die. And looking forward, I would throw NFTs into that. So Ethereum and the contracts you're building your NFTs on are really very new. And you're going to have iteration on how these contracts, how the programming in them is developed and encapsulates whatever information is in there. Also, you're not going to lose the art because the art is actually on IPFS, which is a file system.

Lee Day

Unless, of course, your art just disappears from IPFS, which is also possible because if it doesn't, it's sort of use it or lose it. And if no one uses it, it may just disappear. So the digital world is sort of at its foundation a bit ephemeral. And that's not even touching on what Apple does to their iPhones.

We touched a little bit on that last time. Cynthia, it looks like Cynthia and Roz both had something to share.

Yeah. Well, first. Okay. Well, it just I don't know. I always think on things in like seven different layers at once. But this whole thing brings up so much and Davo, you've presented it well. But the spiritual and the ephemeral for me has been so combined since the earliest days of working in this crazy machine.

Roz Dimon

But the thing about NFTs, even though part of that landscape, really, is that it's not just about the digital world. It's about the digital world. And that's what drives me kind of crazy because I feel like, I don't know. I think it's still very it's so young and raw. And I think there's some good work being shown and lots. It's just about the gold rush. But at the same time, the very fact that provenance is given in our landscape to those who've been working with whether you even started with Photoshop. I mean, I started with software programs, but their underlying code is the dirt that we work with. And that dirt has all of a sudden been a place that you can demarcate. You know, marketing and collecting and other provenance and historical ways to remember a work of art besides in the physical space that we know.

Roz Dimon

So this whole obsolescence idea is fascinating to me and also for the reason that my father was a renowned surgeon and kept all these slides and things of his stuff. And I can't help but get into the biblical passages of dust to dust. Like, you know, if we can let go of ego. I think who can let go of ego?

Roz Dimon

I'm I guess I just keep coming back in my own life when I feel a little like, Oh, what's the point? You know, it's gone from floppies to this, to that, to that, but you know, you, it almost feel, I mean, you can either look at it and say, nothing makes sense. Nothing makes a difference when everything does. And you don't really know what you're offering out to the world. What is going to make a difference? So I, I always sort of come back to that, that idea that art is art itself. And the creation is what makes the difference. And we just have to keep creating and speaking out to the world. Know if our pieces are going to last. I mean, I've rolled up quite a few of my own.

Roz Dimon

They're not quite in the same format, like Flash Shockwave and stuff. I mean, they're videos now. But it is a, even if things are, it's a very exciting world to be in. And yet it's, I don't know, I sometimes, I don't know, I might just drop it all at some point and go back to oil on canvas. Because those pieces are really lasting really well, even in bright sunshine.

But what about fire? What?

But what about fire?

Well, yeah, I mean, at a point we're all defying death. I mean, we really are in a way. It's like I am, I mean, if I roll up this to that. And I roll up this to that. And there's something to be said for letting go. But there's also something to be said for the beauty of history and knowledge and keeping things so that others know what happened.

The value of preservation.

My father once called this place where I find myself a lot, he called it divine tension. And I don't know if it helps any of you, but we're always looking for, oh, this is the answer when I find it. And he said, if you're in that place of divine tension, and I don't mean necessarily even in a religious sense. But. We're two very important opposing things are going on. That's still a great place to be. And we get in those places here a lot. And it makes it a very invigorating salon.

Roz Dimon

Yeah.

Great right there with you.

I rarely give answers. And I don't know if there's, it's more like the questions.

What about.

Oh, go ahead. What about turning this on its head and making art that has a built in obsolescence? If it's digital art, it has an expiration date and then it's gone.

Great.

That's the best by the state.

Yeah. Our version of Snapchat.

No, but putting it on purpose. And then the art is there for people to see for a certain amount of time in a moment. And then it's gone. And then maybe you have a poster or something to preserve it or photos so people can see that it was created. But the actual digital or technological piece is gone. Yeah.

I promise you some people keep it.

Screenshot. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Hey, I have something to share for briefly. If I could jump in real quick. This topic made me take a little trip down memory lane. Just going to share my screen real quick. You see this screen?

Yep.

So this is on Steve Miller site. Oh. That was weird. My computer just started talking

To me. Was that Siri?

That was Siri. That never happened before. So this is a project that I worked on with Steve Miller back in 1999 called Dreaming Brain. It was a web-based piece that we worked on together in a collaborative way. And it was shown at a place called the Equitable Gallery in New York City. And this is an example of obsolescence where the piece was generally, I mean, it was basically constructed using two, I don't know, three or four computers. But we used two computers to shoot at the same time. So this was an absolute technology. Now obsolete QuickTimeVR and RealVideo. RealVideo was the streaming linear time-based component and QuickTimeVR was the virtual reality component.

Colin Goldberg

And we shot the scenes using a Sony Mavica camera which took floppy disks. You actually inserted the floppy disk into the camera and then would shoot panoramas that got stitched together in a program called QuickTimeVR Authoring Studio. So this was really exciting. So the only sort of remnant of the project is the domain still exists and the HTML shell that I put together still is there. And basically like some of the components and these are basically GIF animations in the intro, which there's Steve.

Colin Goldberg

And then it jumps to an intro screen, which is also a GIF animation on top of another GIF animation that's tiled. So this is a really interesting project. So this is like fun with old school HTML. And then basically like you can't view it anymore. And we've talked about different ways to like resurrect the project. And, you know, it got some grant funding. It was in a publication. You know, like it was an important piece for both of us, I think, at the time. I was kind of like the ghost producer and Steve was like the guy who put his name on it initially. We sort of like on the web, we shared credit for it. But it's still there. But, you know, it was a really fun project to work on. And, you know, at this point, I can't even get a version of QuickTime old enough to run QuickTime VR anymore.

Colin Goldberg

So I can't even like take the panoramas for a spin. And we like went into the panoramas and made them these really crazy, like surreal, like the whole piece was about Freud and psychoanalysis. So like we shot, you know, like a playground and then went into the actual pano file in Photoshop and edited in like all sorts of stuff. And it's just a weird stuff. Like Steve like pulled out toys from his childhood. And like I've helped like I Photoshopped them into the panorama and like different other weird things. And it was really fun. And it's sad.

Colin Goldberg

You know, I was like looking through the source materials. I was like, where are the original movies that I encoded into real video? Like, you know, and I don't even think I have them anymore. I still have the floppy disks, you know. And. I don't have a drive to run them on. And like Tommy was saying in the chat with zip disks and then like side quests and all these other old media, you know, I mean, it's just like, what's going to happen? They'll just be in the landfill, you know. But, you know, the one thing that I find that's really fun is emulators.

I'm like addicted to emulators.

Yeah. So like, you know, I've been running actually a lot of this stuff that I've been doing now with the Axie draw. I've been processing photographic images through Adobe Streamline, which I had to install an emulator on my Mac to run and install Streamline because it's not supported for a couple decades now in Mac OS. But you could do some really cool like vectorization things with it that I can't figure out how to do with any new stuff. So, anyway,

That's all out of me.

And for those that don't know who are tuning in an emulator is literally just like a virtual version of kind of a, it's a piece of software that mimics or copies how a another piece of software supposed function so like, say, say you wanted to use Windows 98. You could create a virtual version of Windows 98 and recreate that. That environment, and have software run off of it. People have done this with computer software people have done this with video games notoriously for video games.

Davonte Bradley

It's a very interesting useful tool tool. That's also how some people have been able to do things like put Windows on a Mac computer, because you can have a Windows emulator on a Mac. Yes. So, yeah, it's a very, very interesting thing.

There's a for any Mac users out there's one called sheep shaver that lets you install like Mac OS 8, 9, whatever onto like a modern Mac, and then there's an actual place called the Macintosh software repository, where you can download disk images of like all the old software games Castle Wolfenstein whatever you know what I mean and it's pretty cool but like a lot of the old Adobe software they basically don't care like, yeah, it's just a piece of software. It's a sort of a you know the zero number. Is the thing to the point that like, you know, the two of the other thing I was just...

Colin Goldberg

To like real I don't know like there was a thing called the demo scene where these cracking crews would make they would crack games and then release demos that would precede the cracked video game almost like graffiti but digital graffiti like in the 80s and some of that stuff was just better than the games you know if you go on YouTube like and look up like you know 80s demo scene or c64 demo scene apple 2 had a demo scene also and there was a sort of competition between like the apple 2 people and the commodore people or whatever so anyway trip down memory lane

And I guess well and when you're in the middle of something these new things like in the 80s and 90s when we were experimenting with all this you didn't really think about the fact that oh flash shockwave won't be here macro media director won't be here umpta you know it's and I guess with nfts as someone is all of us or a few have talked about nfts will they'll change too but you got to dive in there anyway the whole emulator thing though I think you have to in order to save it you have to really make a video of the emulation at least that's how I've done it with a young programmer I've been working with is that he goes back to a certain he uses an emulator and he goes back to a certain map machine he's got a basement full of things he runs it and then he's taking a video and in terms of things when it's animated does that make sense to you colin or Davo because I don't

Think you could sometimes export

It out within the emulator like what I've been doing with that streamline is you could run it and save it out in a format like eps or something like that still is readable you know and then you can save it out in a format like so like if you're in an emulator that's modern enough you could probably output like a dot mov file or something else that then you could bring in you know like there might be a crossover point yeah

Getting back to what raz and david and lee were talking about the ephemeral quality of what we do and how that's okay being a part of that I agree and I think almost I see it like we're creating mandalas that eventually will you know wash away but the whole idea is not just the end product but the journey of what we're doing is important and even if we look at it as a as a performance you know when people actors create a performance very often it could be taped but sometimes there are live performances that are not taped and you need to be there to see it and have the experience so I think there's validity to that I also we have we're cognizant of the fact that capitalism and progress promotes planned obsolescence we don't have obsolescence because we can't use something anymore because something new comes along but they want something new because they want something new because they want something new to come along so you know so we flow with the tide we adapt do whatever but yeah I like that idea of we are part of that journey and that's remarkable as well

I wanted to say something to what cynthia just mentioned because I just recently ran into this obsolescence thing not so much with my artwork but with the large epson printer that I have a big 44 inch one it works great I only use it a few times a month it's perfect they've made the inks obsolescent so now this huge printers can end up as landfill and I'm going to have to go out and spend another five or six thousand dollars because they're expensive to get another big one and that really upsets me and that's much the money aspect which of course is part of the problem but that it will end up in the landfills and that's the way that you are and you have to be not that's the landfill and that it is a perfectly good piece of equipment. And to just say that, oh, now the inks can't be made for it anymore.

Sherry Karver

It's progress, but I'm not so sure it's good progress. And will the new inks or the new big printer be any better than this one? I doubt that. So I think it's a problem, you know, a little bit. And I just ran into this just the other day. I found out I can no longer get the ink. So the whole concept of obsolescence is really fresh in my mind. Good topic to bring up, Devo.

Tommy just mentioned he asked whether or not you can still refill the cartridges or do they just like stop the ink production period?

They did stop the particular ink production period. I could get off market inks, what they're called. They are not archival and they are not as good. As the other ones. And since I do it with my oil paintings and that I incorporate, you know, printed images, I have to make sure that it's the real stuff and archival because I did look into that.

Sherry Karver

Unfortunately, can't refill them with the good stuff.

That actually it's kind of how like that whole idea is kind of how we got or brought this subject up during our last discussion, because I kind of made a comment. I was like, were there artists back in the. Day that, you know, there was a plant or something that, you know, it went extinct and they could no longer produce that hue anymore from that particular plant. What happened there? And I feel like this is kind of a.

Davonte Bradley

More modern version of that, where it's not necessarily the thing has gone extinct. It's just that the people creating it or like what house actually produced, it's just they've just stopped production period. But it's it has the same effect of. You no longer having access to, you know, that ink or that big pigment or what have you.

And I'm thinking a lot about that as a person that's done photography for about 35 or 40 years and how. How much photographers have used the idea of using obsolete materials and methods over time because. And I may be saying. This to people that already know this because silver printing. The reason silver printing happened wasn't because people wanted to do it was because of Kodak. And so that whole way of creating photography was driven by money, like most of the things that we're talking about now. But from a long time, because the way that people were producing photography photographs were with the cyanotype and Van Dyke Brown and those. Those different chemicals. Anyway, so that transition happened. I don't know what years Tony can probably tell you what years better than I because I'm not I don't hold on to that history info.

Susan Detroy

But I think a lot about this because. As a person that's gone from totally analog. Black and white photography making film. Images was negatives through and resisted. So strongly digital camera for so long. And now I've embraced digital work just totally. I still and I mentioned this in the chat. I have years and years of negatives which I could use some of those. But I also relate to the idea of like what am I going to let go of like how many books of those negatives and negative sheets am I going to just either give away if I can find some place to give them to. Or am I going to you know I'm going to find the clients. I had all those clients. With that I did pictures of for all those years. So I'm thinking a lot about it as I'm getting older and I want stuff gone. I'm done with analog work.

Susan Detroy

And. So the other thing for me as an artist is that I find myself wanting to combine those two parts of my art making. And so sometimes. I have a project where I'm trying to think how do I combine my digital work and my hard copy work because I did that for so many years. So that feels like an interesting.

Susan Detroy

Point for me and. So those are. Most mainly the thoughts that I'm having and I really like this topic because. I think about what I'm using. And how to combine things that I've used over my lifetime of making art and. So that's what I wanted to say. Thanks.

Yeah. Thank you. Kind of wanted to follow up real quickly. From what just. Just that. Because I think implicit in what she was just talking about is another idea that I was thinking about over the last week or so on the topic. Is that the idea of obsolescence. Is it's kind of inherently we think like oh well it's because of progress like moving forward doing something better or more advanced.

Michael Pierre Price

That isn't always the case and what thought that I had was we as human beings we

Get trained into doing things a certain way and. We. We can become obsolete in the way that we think about stuff.

And that we need as well to be helpful. And realize. What are what our steps are what do we do why do we do that and I think. So there's like this symbiosis that we have between us the human you know technology interface and we can be so tunnel vision. With how we saw a new technology comes along and we're still thinking. In the way we've been doing things before and we can't see where this new technology might go because we haven't caught up to it we have where you know our thinking processes back you know well how do you how do you how can you use it up to you know what can you do with that and so.

Michael Pierre Price

All. My thought was with this whole idea of obsolescence that it isn't. Always just about new machines or new technology it's us you know it in conjunction with that technology that we also have to evolve in ways are we have to. Get off of what the past was and then I think of looking at artwork and not understanding where people were coming from.

Michael Pierre Price

In what they created versus what. We're doing now and what are people you know 200 years from now, going to look back on what we're doing. And I think it's scratched our head and think what the hell were these people doing what kind of weird stuff was that, and you know, so I just I just find it really fascinating.

Michael Pierre Price

That we as human beings are part of this component of obsolescence not only just because of the technology standpoint, but our thought processes. That are so. Integrated into that we oftentimes forget about that.

And I think it's also interesting to note that back to the whole human elements being tied inherently to that. Like even just from an organic perspective over time humans have developed obsolete traits are obsolete things that they're just not used anymore they're still in us and they're still part of this or some remnants of it still there. But over time, like. We as humans have adapted certain things and certain things to just either fallen off shriveled up or they're there and it's just like we don't know what you do, but hey.

Davonte Bradley

Like it's interesting, though, because that organic element, you can still take that outside of us to because technology kind of often reflects us in a lot of ways to because we're the ones that create technology. So. Gradually, as we adapt and evolve so will our technology and then parts and pieces will start falling away as things change and develop over time. And it's not necessarily a nefarious thing it sometimes, of course, yes, this spurred on by capitalistic ideas and that kind of thing, but there's also kind of just that natural progression kind of thing you can't really expect things to stay the same perpetually.

Davonte Bradley

So. There's always going to be that element of something's eventually going to change, whether you want it to or not.

Oh, and my, my last point that I wanted to just mention real briefly is going back to my, you know, my game background. We have now created AI that the most sophisticated human chess players don't stand a chance anymore are the most sophisticated go players cannot. So. So. Are we going to create AI that creates artwork that is so much cooler than what we can do as human beings. I hope not. But it's, it's just this my whole point with obsolescence and the human computer the human technology interface.

You know, you know what that idea kind of reminds me of to go going from the religious angle. It's like the question of, can God create a boulder that he himself cannot lift. So. So are we going to create a piece of technology that far exceeds that something that we'll even be able to understand. And I think that's happening already, like we're well on that road.

Davonte Bradley

Yes.

Yes, I tend to I love crosstalk because you know for me I think that when creatives get together and they cross talk things happen but I also know that some people hate that but I think that's where the things get snapping. I have to just say here, share with you guys that I've. I have to just say here, share with you guys that I've. I have to just say here, share with you guys that I've. I have to just say here, share with you guys that I've.

Roz Dimon

I have to just say here, share with you guys that I've. I have to just say here, share with you guys that I've. I have to just say here, share with you guys that I've. I have to just say here, share with you guys that I've. I have to just say here, share with you guys that I've. I have to just say here, share with you guys that I've. I have to just say here, share with you guys that I've. I have to just say here, share with you guys that I've. I have to just say here, share with you guys that I've. I have to just say here, share with you guys that I've. It doesn't exceed his grasp. What's a heaven for? At the same time, if it does exceed your grasp, I think about this a lot with my guns. And, you know, I think a lot of, you know, I have a Kalashnikov out there that I'm not expecting people to love.

Roz Dimon

I didn't do it for to promote anything about guns, really, but I'm reflecting our society. But even in that comment, it makes me think about some of the things that Shelley is involved in saying. And it's really like the new Prometheus where she's she said this brilliant scientist makes this human himself. He becomes God and he becomes his own God and makes this human.

Roz Dimon

And he's a brilliant student. And he's also someone who loved the wonders of the world. But he gave that up sort of like pitting enlightenment against romanticism. And it is in that time. It's the end of the 18th century. But he makes this monster and the monster, all the monster one is to be loved. You know, and just because it's ugly and horrible looking and his father deserts him. So it's got an Oedipal complexes and all sorts of things going on in it. But, you know, the inventor leaves his invention and doesn't as a human being. I think we've learned to nurture each other a little better. It's a backward and forward contest over time. But you see this man who thinks he's on some brilliant idea and it just is a catastrophe. And I think it's true when we make machine guns that we that are there beyond our hearts to understand.

Roz Dimon

Really, I think our minds can make them. But when we make. Nuclear weapons, we have armaments. We have no armaments for Kalashnikovs and they're all over the place. You know, the Ukrainians are using millions of Russians and the Russians invented them and probably prevented the Nazis from taking that was besides the coal winner that saved. That was a big saving thing. And it was an invention. So I guess that's people say, why do you draw guns? But getting to these topics, you know, in Frankenstein the other day, my husband, I said, said, Ross, you look so sad. He said, you know, maybe you should stop. Stop reading Frankenstein. And I said, I can't stop. It's great. You know, but there is a point where getting back to all that we're saying, it's also about birth. I mean, death. And that's a spiritual thing.

Roz Dimon

And I'm a very I am a religious person. But I think, you know, when things die, something else lives. And to ask to the thinking of with Michael, if some of us are older, can possibly even grasp these new things and encourage the young. I think that we have to do. That is sometimes step aside and go, yeah, I don't I don't I can't make the greatest NFTs, but I'm part of the history and that's where we need people. I think this whole dialog is good because we don't have too many critics and journalists who are connecting all these thoughts and stuff. And if we don't have that, the history of art loses all of its nuance and meaning, you know.

Roz Dimon

Well, that's it in just a little nutshell, but it's fascinating discussion.

It is. It is right.

I mean. Who had a like a world book set, you know, of encyclopedias when they were a kid and, you know, who would have imagined that, you know, you could have something in your pocket where you can literally look up the answer to any question, have it translated into any language, have it speak it to you in any other language. I mean, it's like, you know, in our lifetimes, human, you know, the human experience has changed so dramatically.

Colin Goldberg

It's like impossible for me to think like, wow. Like when my kid. Is my age. What is this planet going to look like? What is our human experience going to be like? You know, I mean, it's really pretty crazy. And like to even think back before the smartphone, you know, and like what that form factor and that, you know, the fact that you can have a computer in your pocket really like means for like what it's like to be a person. I mean, it's really, you know. Not only does it change everything. Right. And you know, it's something that like I completely take it for granted unless I'm sitting in one of these salon sessions talking about obsolescence.

Colin Goldberg

But it's kind of weird. You know, I mean, if it's art, but I mean, it affects just so many, you know, so many assets and just I mean, the book, you know, God forbid that goes away. Right.

It could happen. It could. We don't use scrolls necessarily anymore, do we? Like they still exist. What's left of them still exists. But we stopped using scrolls. So books could also end up being in a similar situation where there's something that comes and replaces books. Now I don't have the mental capacity or imagination to imagine what that would be. But I'm sure it's possible. I can definitely imagine a world where there's books. I'm sure that can happen. Yeah. Yeah. Books, books will be phones or like some like digital tablet. I mean, we're already kind of there with Kindles and whatnot, but like actually just having like going to a bookstore and buying a tablet, this is preloaded with a specific story or specific information and then purchasing that. Who knows?

But you know, it brings up also something that we haven't really touched on too much, I don't think. I think it's the universals of art where art lives on. It requires history, though. I think a lot of it, you know, to understand. Like Giotto. I look back at Giotto and I wouldn't think he's such great shakes if I didn't realize what turn in history, what he did changed, you know, from the period before and how the Greco Roman was changed, you know, by the Byzantine and, you know, but what are the universals in works of art? Someone typed about Nam June Paik. I think it may was Tommy. Yeah. I've always loved Nam June Paik. And I'm a, I'm all about the emotions in art, of course, thinking too, but seriously, they're pieces you look at and they pull you and he always had heart in his technology.

Roz Dimon

There's always something in them that was so compelling and it wasn't just about a concept of science, at least for me. And that's where I think that's where we want to keep, there are, what are those universals? What are those stories that we keep telling over and over? I mean, that happens too. And it goes throughout all sorts of mediums and physical things like the book, maybe the book will be gone, but stories, people still love stories. I remember being a testing thing in the eighties where they were going to have you come into theater and that you could decide what ending you wanted at the end. And James and I were very, you know, like Colin and other people and Michael Pierre and other people here, you know, you, you thought you were on the very, you were on the cutting edge at that time.

Roz Dimon

So it was a very kind of private theater thing of a brand new thing that was going to change theater. And you know, nobody really wanted to change the endings. It's like interactivity. It's like, is an elevator button. Is that really interesting? I mean, we have to kind of get back to what, you know, an artwork has to have more than just.

But the idea never actually completely died because what happened with DVDs alternate endings on the DVDs that you could, you could see, like, it might not be the one that necessarily plays immediately. But you can go back and it's like, oh, I wonder how this would have happened. And then you have that option to view that. So that, that idea didn't completely die. It just manifests itself in a different way.

Yeah, probably. So, yeah, it reminds me of something that's happening locally with a dance troupe here where you go, this is where you go and you build the dance, like the people in the audience, actually. Like the dancers are up on the stage. And, and there's music, but you tell the dancers what to do. And so over a period of like two hours, it goes back and forth and the whole audience is a choreographer. It just made me think of that and how, how completely exciting that is for the people that are there. And it's a big draw. It used to happen, of course, a lot more before COVID, but they're starting to do it again and usually do they do it outside in the summertime so that for here that means like June, July, August and there but the idea that people want to affect what artists are doing is very prevalent in those in those times that people are doing that.

Susan Detroy

The other thing I've been thinking about while people are talking is how much it is a kind of human privilege for us as artists to be able to do what we're doing in terms of understanding how much has happened before us in the terms of art and how much is happening now and how we just think it's, it's kind of chillingly exciting for me to, to understand that, that all of us in my role is to look and interpolate, interpolate what's going on and that I have the ability to think about time and art and use that however I want. I mean, I think that's really an exciting idea. That's what I've been thinking.

Yeah, it's an exciting idea. And I was thinking too about this business of heart in our art, emotion or spirituality in our, in our art. One of the themes of literature is head versus heart. And I think that brings up the, all the issues that we've been talking about. If there's too much head and we become or create Frankensteins, that's a problem. If there's not enough heart, that's also a problem that this sense of feeling so that it doesn't, we don't end up with this sterile, sterile art, art that only speaks, does not speak to the human spirit, does not speak to those things that are important for all of us to have and maintain and share and leave for others.

When you, when you say that like sterile art, my, the first thing that comes to my mind is the kind of like, I guess it's, it's a kind of corporate art, I guess, corporate or commercial art where it's very distinct in what it is because it feels so lifeless. It's like, ah, these are the silhouettes of people, but there's something missing.

Davonte Bradley

I'm sorry.

Yosef Albers. Yosef Albers? No, but I mean, that's a sterile, that's very, very sterile. And I wouldn't call that not worthwhile. I mean, he just sat there doing color variations. And I love the work. I don't think it has much heart, but it's very engaging. That's, I like the, I like the walking silhouettes too, frankly.

Well, that, I wasn't talking about that specifically. I wish I could pull up an example because like, I'm on LinkedIn a lot. And a lot of like the marketing stuff. I mean, I'm not a huge fan of marketing and promotional material that a lot of companies like to share on LinkedIn. They usually hire, normally it's like a graphic designer, not even necessarily an artist, but like a graphic designer to create something that, from the words of like my marketing friends, like, it's got to look nice, but not too nice.

Davonte Bradley

And it's a weird, like balancing act of trying to be creative. But not creative enough to the point where like somebody's recognizing this as a piece of art. Like the whole intention behind it is completely different than anything I'm familiar with anyway. It's weird.

The MUSEK version of art.

But that's, that's, that's what was coming to mind. Like purposely devoiding, like on purpose, removing the heart. And spirit from the artwork so that you could sell a product.

Unless you remove that and make the art sterile because you're making, you're creating a message.

Right.

In other words, if you want to, you know, you may want to show sterility, sterility, excuse me, in your art because you want to say something about it. Right. And so then the purpose of your art might be a little bit different. So I guess maybe using the word sterile. And art, you have to think of it in different ways. And I think the way you mentioned devo is, you know, one of the ways where it could be sterile if the purpose is such that maybe it's only for commercialism.

Allen Hirsh

Mm hmm. If you will.

Right.

I see it as like corporate art that's, it's like so generic that it can upset anybody. You know, it's, it's just so bland. And so manufactured that it just can't upset anybody because there are people who will get upset if it's too red or if it's too blue or, you know.

Yeah, that's, that's exactly what I was going to, yeah, that.

Yeah.

It's like when, when you have a message that's too broad and you don't really say a whole lot. Right. Because you're too broad.

Mm hmm. And yet, I don't know, I've always been one that likes to mix everything together with corporate. I had some really exciting. It might be getting into a different thing than what you're saying, but such excitement working inside, inside the fine, the corporate art world at the World Financial Center, you know, in the, in the 90s. I mean, it was fascinating. And, and, and, you know, in the Renaissance, the tradespeople and the corporate and the money and the art and, you know, of course, certain things rose to the top, but it was all one. It wasn't really a separation because money is part of art. I mean, it just is if you're a serious artist, it is I mean whether you're making it or not.

Roz Dimon

Yeah, some, it's part, it's part of the equation. So I don't know mixing I think that actually in our new in the digital age that's mixing up a lot more. Yeah, I think that can be very powerful, because you want to be able to make a living. We don't want to be so precious that we're out there and not part of the world.

Roz Dimon

I also want to...

Oh, go ahead. I was going to say, all your Doctors Without Borders and the art you bring to the papers that you send around the world, hoping to get people to donate, you know, that's business of a sort. Their aim is not business, but their aim is to get people to, you know, help these doctors around the world. So there's that kind of art that might be there. So I guess we really have to look at the intentions of the artist and the art and, you know, what it's assigned with. Whether it's a bland, I don't want to offend anyone type of art versus...

Allen Hirsh

Want to get you involved art because we need help we need doctors to go out there where no one will go right

And even like you know what from a commercial standpoint you know you're in an ad agency setting and a creative director will say well drop the art in there you know and it's just a different usage of what art means right it's an illustration it's something made to sell product and I think that it's you know from my point of view like you know there's good and bad commercial art usage you know and compelling and not compelling you know what I mean just like within fine art you know I think right I mean a lot of what drove me in terms of like developing this Techspressionism idea is to have some term to exclude everything other than personal expression when you're talking about it you know what I mean like because digital art is such a large umbrella if you look up digital art on any social media platform you know you're going to see a lot of work that's basically like illustration or commercial work that's produced for a specific purpose not necessarily fine art which is a term that's also sort of loaded you know what I mean saying like well you know is it some sort of like quality level you know and I think that the talk about the you know the commerce component is important because ultimately like that's sort of like what records certain artists in history or not like you know I don't think that banksy is that much better of a street graffiti style artist than artist x it's just that person or consortium's work ended up being exchanged for a lot of money at auction so all of a sudden it's valuable it's made its place in art history because of that transactional component to it you know what I mean like I don't and I think it's to some degree a little bit arbitrary and sort of luck of the draw how that how did that I think it's a lot of it arbitrary completely or like you know I mean like people's 3d renderings are pretty amazing but I wouldn't say he's that much incredibly better than the you know when you look at like the you know the value of the work compared to like the next really good 3d animator or renderer person and you know he was completely a commercial artist right prior to that's where he got his chops and all this other stuff but it's like the christie sale was what made people pay for it and it's like it's like you know it's not like the art was what made people pay attention to nfts in the first place but it isn't like the art was what made people pay attention right it was the price tag you know so it's very strange I mean I guess it's sort of like straying a little bit from obsolescence but it is and it isn't because you know then a year or two down the road there'll be something else just like it was like oh jeff coons and it's like you know crazy you know metal bunnies or whatever they were like or if it's like a lot of money and it's like a lot of money oh the shock value of what the price tag is for that and then it's like the next thing where the general public's like they paid what for what you know and it seems like that's the narrative that like the general populace has with like fine art is like look how ridiculous that is how expensive that is and how ridiculous it

Is I think we can you know what I mean I think we could definitely drive that back into a discussion about obsolescence because you have again another instance of something that's driving things becoming obsolete like dollar signs or value attributions driving how things are you know pushed forward versus the things are left behind which no longer have value and then they end up falling to the other wayside so that's kind of an important you distinction that happens that's

True but look back at someone like Vermeer I mean he did these what he did he only had 23 paintings I think but he was not rediscovered for he made a living as an artist you know I mean remember there was a photography or anything else and just you know oil on canvas and even the common people in the dutch 17th century which is that golden age of dutch painting everybody had eight paintings in their home I mean this is it was the rise of the middle class at that time but he was the he wasn't known for a couple of hundred years and somebody found his work and donated to the Met. And, and, and then he became, he's like one of the hugest things ever. So you never really know. And you look back in time and I'm not saying that we're going to become Vermeer, but it's just that, but you don't know, you don't know.

You don't know.

And that, that, that, that's a hopefulness too, because honestly think sometimes the people like the peoples and I actually likes a lot of peoples. I mean, 5,000 images. I mean, it was pretty interesting. At least it was of some interest. But I agree with what Colin was saying. But you know, you just, you never really know where your art's going to hit or, or influence someone. And I think that's an interesting point. I want to share with you before, before this discussion ends, I have to share a party I did in my backyard here in Shelter Island, New York. And it was called Burn Art and it created a real stir out here.

Roz Dimon

And I was doing it to be sort of in the face of, look, I'm, I'm not saying that we should burn books and art. The whole idea was that you could only burn your own work and there's nothing more satisfying than tearing up a piece of work that you just cannot stand. I mean, I have slashed a canvas and oh my gosh, it's refreshing, you know, the death of art. And the party had these fake flames coming up and people came and brought drawings. A woman who wrote for the East Hampton Star brought a script of hers. I'm sure she had a copy and she went to the gods and I videotaped it and it's actually on my YouTube channel and it's horribly videoed by me. I am not a videographer, but it was one of the most funny, refreshing parties. And I, I mean, and somebody had this woman call me and go, Roz, what are you doing?

Roz Dimon

Burning art. And I understand from the Jewish perspective of when, you know, do you can't burn books and being, you know, ostracized and not being able to print and censorship. I am totally not for censorship, but there's something refreshing about it. So I just want you guys to know if we're all friends in, I don't know, when I decide I'm ready to take my collection and burn it in the backyard, I think I'm going to this time, it was a really fun party with marshmallows and lots of fun. But people were burning art and we'd say, oh, are you sure they say, yes, it has to go. You couldn't burn anybody else's work, but I'm going to have another one of these people keep saying, Roz, you've got to bring that burn art party back and I'm going to burn. I'll have a burn art party and I'll have an auction along with it.

Roz Dimon

So I'll go really, does it have to go to the fire? And then maybe it does. Anyway, I just thought this would be kind of a fun epitaph for this conversation of obsolescence.

You could totally have a digital version of that too, but I think it'd probably be a lot less flashy, but like a, a ritual recycle bin dump.

I think maybe we have an NFT, like you guys are all part of it and we take burnout to the screen, you know, yeah.

Yeah.

They, well, and also like people have been making physical work and, and minting it and then burning the physical object to create scarcity. You know, like that's definitely something that's like a thing now, apparently within the NFT community. And you know, it's, it's, it seems gimmicky, but it's also something that like, I had thought about before NFTs existed. Like I actually, I made a couple of pieces that I thought, well, these are the sort of my alchemy series and I'll make them scan them in, destroy the things. And then there's just this digital thing.

And now it's, you know, I had the opposite thing happen to it. Like I was thinking about like when, cause I, when I was trying to figure out what the heck an original meant for me, like what the heck an original painting meant for me, because I work all digitally, like there's no physicality. So my work until I decided to make a print of it.

Yeah.

So, so there was a point where I was like, well, I guess I could do something where like, I'll make one print of it and then delete the digital file that created it. And then there will only be the physical print left. I was like, but would that be too gimmicky? Like would people understand? And I never went through with it, but I still think about that kind of thing in my mind where, you know, because everything that I make is essentially a reproduction or bringing physicality to something that was never physical.

Yeah.

You get into a weird mindset.

Or is it a reproduction? You know, like, you know, is it, is, is the actual art the file the code? You know what I mean? Like that's something.

I'm still wrestling with that idea. I'm still wrestling with

It. The physical object is like a manifestation of the piece, but it's not.

I think so. You know? Yeah.

I think that would be a great idea, Davo, if you also put alongside it, should you decide to get rid of the file and print it alongside it, this whole commentary that you are presenting right now about why you did it. Yes. You know, I had this file. I, I had, you know, I've given you the physical manifestation.

Allen Hirsh

I think it's a special kind of, way to, to present it. It is.

Or you could make the work and never print it. Like a lot of the work that I do on paper, if it's, like something composed to be an overprint, like I never, I don't save the file after I print it, you know, just print it and close it out, you know, that way it's gone. It's gone.

If you're doing a limited edition print though, and you know, say you're doing just three and then you're supposed to destroy the file, right? The original, if you're selling it, it's a limited edition print. So that's kind of the way the world seems to handle that right now. But, but I do think Davos make an interesting point.

This topic made me think too about this.

You guys ever hear of, time wave zero or this idea of novelty theory? There was a guy, Terrence McKenna, who, wrote a lot about like sort of ethnobotany and other things, but this idea of a novelty theory, where, you know, as history progresses, things have to be more and more extreme for people to even notice them. Right. And I feel like that's happening right now in our society, you know, like something that's completely shocking, like the pandemic, you know, and then like a couple months in, it's like, oh yeah. Like what's the death toll today, you know, on TV every single day, it's normalized, like you're just numbed to it. And then it's like, I feel like we're, we're on the heels of like this next thing that's happening now in Ukraine and everything else like that. It's like, oh, like how insane does this have to be for like people to notice it?

Colin Goldberg

And my wife is so, you know, watching the news, like, aren't we supposed to like have evolved? Like, like, no, we're like, we're animals, you know, that's the bottom line. Humans are animals, you know, and that's not going to

Change. Darn lizard brain. I actually have a good friend of mine who he tells me is like, you know, you'd probably be a lot less disappointed with the world when you understand that humanity is still at its very core. It's, it's still a bunch of apes. Like that's, that's what we are. We're just a little bit more sophisticated than the ones that don't wear clothes, but deep down that's, that's what we are. And a lot of the things that happen, it's not surprising through that lens. I was like, you have a point, but that sucks.

Well, we've also, we can't go race all the amazing things we've done too.

Right.

Symphonies and art and just, and I agree that there's some poem by a guy, somebody named anonymous and it starts with what's the surprise. We were born of risen apes, not fallen angels, but then look at our symphonies and look at our, you know, there, there, it is a, really the human experiment. It's, I agree. It's still out there for the, I mean, we still are beasts, but, but we also, we still aren't, I don't know which what's going to win.

Well, there was one thing that happened recently that I thought was really, it made me feel good was that in this show you know, the, the expressionism show, there's going to be a grid of work that gets fabricated from artists all over the place. And there's a Ukrainian artist and a Russian artist in the grid of work. And the Russian artist messaged me and he's like, you know, in light of what's going on, I feel like I would, I would like to donate, you know, whatever, if my work sells to, to where it's needed. And I was like, wow, like that's, that's cool. Like to like get a message like that.

Colin Goldberg

It's reaffirming like faith in, in humanity a little bit, you know?

It is. Yeah.

And we all could use little spurts like that because sometimes they're few and far between.

Well, when you look at the Russian people, you know what they're doing, I mean, I can put up a Kalashnikov and I honestly can't take any money for a gun that I've drawn that at this point that relates to what's going on as it does. But for me to say, I'm going to give the proceeds if it sells is so different than a Russian being arrested in their country. I mean, they might be taken off to Siberia. You know, we're, we're so lucky to be in those of us who live where we are not, you know, oppressed.

Roz Dimon

Yeah.

When you look at all the terrible things that are going on, you have someone like Zelensky who is absolutely incredible in his courage. I probably would have taken the ride out of the country, but this man stays there. And then of course all those other people we don't know about within Ukraine that are doing things marvelous, unbelievable, unspeakably courageous acts. The woman in Russia who gets on the television station news and holds up that sign who has a little child at home and risks everything, her job, her friends, prison, to do that. So when we talk about, you know, the ugly side of human nature, there is also this beauty. The problem is we don't hear about it enough. The drumbeat of the news is always the bad, the bad. What can we get you to do? What can we get you to think is new and to shock you, to get you to pay attention as Colin was mentioning earlier.

Allen Hirsh

But we don't see those other acts, you know, we don't see those other acts, but they're there.

And they can be really, really small because one of the Russian artists who's in Expressionism messaged me to say that the NFT that he had up for sale, he wanted to take the money from that and give it to his Ukrainian friend, whose wife was pregnant. And they're fleeing the country. And it just touched me that he would just do that just as the other artists as well. And, you know, there's people are so sincere with me, at least when we message back and forth. And my mentor in the NFT program is in Lublin in Poland. He's 100 kilometers from where the fighting is and he has three kids. And he said to me, I'm not a fan. I'm afraid, but I don't have peace of mind right now. And he's helping organize mattresses and clothing and food for all the refugees that are pouring into Poland. So, you know, people are, they have good hearts.

Yes. I think so too.

I mean, the internet is almost, you know, it's like a way of people being accountable. You know, or at least having people have the ability to communicate as long as they have access to it. You know, I mean, it's pretty, you know, hard to imagine what it would be like in a place where, I mean, I guess they've tried to like cut access off. Right. I mean, and then people can drop in satellite, you know, routers or whatever else. I mean, you know, and something like Crypto. Where people are still able to transfer funds to each other as individuals in that way. It's like a mechanism that like humans have developed to like preserve ourselves somehow. You know, I mean, I don't know, you know, I definitely think that the internet is some sort of like protection layer for the human species. Right.

Colin Goldberg

I mean, in some way, like it like allows us to see what's going on in these places. And people can broadcast onto social media like what's happening in these places. Like that was never a possibility. You know?

Just Zelensky being able to. And the flipside of that is the obsolescence of privacy and solid truth.

That's what like I actually was talking to my wife not too long ago about this. I was like it was like as many good things that the Internet has provided for humanity. There's a whole slew of not so great things that it's also provided. So it's literally like it's a double edged sword. But when you actually really think about it, it's not even a double edged sword. It is a tool. And tools inherently can be used in a wide variety of ways. Like you can't just take a tool and be like, no, you only have this use for this one purpose. No, somebody is going to use it for other ways. Like create their imaginations. Pretty much the limit. So what the tools used for.

Davonte Bradley

And I don't know, I understand that as a tool, it does have a great capacity to bring about tremendous like even exponential positive change. But it also has the inverse of that. It has the potential to bring about and disportion an amount of negativity as well. And that does reflect the duality of humanity. It's. It's a great capacity for both. Like we have the capacity for both greatness, like great positivity and great negativity.

Davonte Bradley

So it's. I know the Internet is kind of, I guess, a parallel of humanity itself, like in its base essence.

Who would have thought 50 years ago that Zelensky could talk to all the big nations of the world? I mean, just the fact that there he is in his T-shirt, you know, fighting a war, looking worse and worse and more haggard. But he's talking to the UK. He's talking to the United States. He's talking to all these countries. And they're there.

All their people.

People because we have media access you know yeah I mean you know that he doesn't need to go in the news he can be there and talk who would have thought 50 years ago that he could do that and he could be when he talks about he wanted biden when he talked to the u.s to be the leader of world peace he's leader of world peace, Zelensky, in what he's doing.

Allen Hirsh

To talk to all these people, to unite us behind him is just, to me, it's totally mind-boggling. And Davo, I agree with you 100% about the internet and being a tool, and anything can be used for good or bad. You can take a pencil that you write with and stab somebody with it. It's all about the intention of the user, what you're going to do with the tool. And also

Have accidental side effects too. Yes. Back to your pencil metaphor. I actually have a relevant story about a pencil being accidentally, accidental use. So I came home from school one day and I came into the room and I don't know what happened or what sparked it, but my brother started chasing me around. Like I had my pencil in hand, I was about to start my homework. So I started running from him. I tried to jump up on the bed to get away from him and he jumped up and pushed me. I fell on the pencil with my neck. I got stabbed right here in my neck, fell on the pencil on the bed.

Davonte Bradley

That could have killed me. Completely unintentional accident kind of thing happened. It just happened to be the wrong situation, the wrong time, and I was holding it just the right angle for that to happen. But again, it was this tool that was about to be used for my homework, accidentally, I could have accidentally been killed by it.

Davonte Bradley

And it's one of those things like the internet, that kind of thing, we can see that happen too, where the internet can have just unforeseen accidental side effects that we wouldn't have even thought about until it actually happens.

The fact that everything on like the power grid is so interconnected through the internet now. And the irony is like it was originally created to create redundancy for nuclear technology so that if one, you know, if you're going to be able to get a nuclear power grid, you're going to have to right, which became the internet. And, you know, I mean, it's sort of achieving its goal now in a way and sort of like a larger sense, right? But like on the flip side, it's like, well, now that everything is connected, you know, nation states or individuals, groups could shut off people's access to utilities, all that other stuff.

Cyber war is here. Definitely.

The pipeline that ended up getting hacked here in the US. Too far back which that was kind of funny too in some ways because the people that did it the hackers they actually issued an apology after the fact they're like oh we didn't actually realize that this particular company controlled so much it

Was like we were just doing we blew up a russian pipe natural glass pipeline about 15 years ago you know it's happened and the other thing I wanted to say is you know churchill and fdr got on the radio and they were communicating with people the same way that zolansky is doing is doing now it's a it's a progression in many ways and the one the thing that has really happened with the internet is the democratization of the ability to communicate on sort of a on a level playing field or on a playing field that's a lot thinner between the you know the most the people really in power and the average person that's

The democratization of the universe the internet provides that and so anyone with any message can deliver it and that's good and it's not so good depending on who it is and what their intentions are well this

Conversation if it's a that's a rather negative thing to say but if the world blows up in the smithereens you know and someone ever finds this disc you know it might it might this could be the rosetta stone for what was going on I don't know you know it's been a very interesting conversation it really has

I think we're actually at time right like we're time's only supposed to go to seven and it feels like we could probably keep going for a while too but unfortunately we do probably have to wrap things up so as riveting as a conversation as this is as engaged as all of you are those of you that have been contributing and participating

We have to call it we have to call it quits for now

But it's been a pleasure oh yeah that's good are

You gonna say something we should alternate and think about having presenters for the next one before we close solicit anyone here first dibs if you want to present you're on record

See see the other part about this group is that as much as people like to talk sometimes they're also very shy when it comes to things like this

I've already presented several times so I feel it would be nice to have someone who has not

Ben

I would like to however I won't be able to make the next one so I'll send you some info colin maybe about a month from now if that works I'll have to check that one too sure

I too would like to present again but after I'm done with taxes like maybe I still

Need to do mine taxes will never be off the lesson

They could be they could be in this in this country anyway but there's certain powers that be that don't want us to have nice things and that's why we have to keep filing taxes every year they don't file them in europe right and we could have that here but lobbyists from like tax cut and hr block they actually fought that yeah they actually fought it and that's why we still have to file taxes because they were like we were going to be out of business if you do it automatically quicken but that's a whole another that's a whole yeah but yeah

So we have gregory I'll send you an email is that the best way to do it

Okay there's actually on the salon page too there's a form where you could submit like a presentation request that's probably the best way to do it because then I think it'll go to both Davo and myself and we could sort of like slot in people as they come in and you could select a time or it could be open-ended I'm pretty much happy with these sort of open mic sessions too though because then it takes the pressure off having to hound people to be a presenter so

That's a really good way to do that in a way that you can do in a very any in a more something that you can do in a more

You know, incorporating brief five minute presentations about relevant to the topic, you know, so it incorporates screen share, like, hey, show us a piece, like, everyone just shows a piece, you know what I mean? And it's about a particular, you know what I mean? That way, there's visuals, and it's incorporating the art into the recording, but also.

Yeah that sounds good are we saying that are the previous versions of the salons are becoming obsolete is that what's happening maybe you

Have to morph the times right

Well I think the previous format it encourages people to like come in see oh there's an opportunity to like show my stuff and then they just never return again whereas like I like that there's you know a group that like gets to know each other and there's ongoing conversation and we're familiar with each other's work like that's to me what I envision this the point of this being not just sort of like a mini ted talk where like any random person just comes in and then we never they never come back you know what I mean like that's no fun

I certainly enjoy being able to say what's in my mind when other people are talking because I'm sure many Many of us are having stream of all kinds of thoughts while we're working or during the week. And I enjoy being able to listen to what other people are thinking. And then, oh, okay, like I've been thinking about this part of that. And I like that there's a place to voice that kind of process. So thanks.

Nice to have.

Maybe Cullen or Davo, you might want to put it out there to the group, you know, and explain it a little bit of what you're looking for. It might bring more people into it.

I mean, I don't even know what that is other than what sort of consensus is. Right. I mean, I think it should just be what the consensus is and what everyone. I mean, you know, I mean, we can continue this after the recording stops. But I think like, you know, the whole idea of what this is supposed to be, I think, at least from my personal perspective, is it's sort of like a group conscience more than like any one or two people deciding what it should be, because that's the most organic way it could evolve and develop, I think. You know, I mean, this idea of. A topic based salon, I think, is really good in the sense that it allows for more conversation. And I think this sort of Brady Bunch style, you know, format isn't something that's very common. Right. Like, you know, I mean, on YouTube or whatever, you know, it's usually like one talking head talking to another talking head for a little while and then they sort of like switch out and like, you know, the.

Colin Goldberg

The idea of the salon is that it's just like a conversation that might have happened in a bar or a coffee shop or someone's living room, you know, like.

I have another idea, too, is that maybe you come up with a topic and we might create work, artwork that reflects that topic, and then maybe some people would like to share that, not that everyone would have to take it on. But I think that's a good idea. That could be.

I like that. Yeah.

It could just be like a part of the salon, you know, and other things could happen in the salon as well. But it could be a part and depending on how many people have that work and share it and we could talk about it and then, you know, we tie into that topic and

It would be a challenge, you know, just like that for an extra one. That way, I don't have to, like, go and find people. But we're all here. And like, we could all. I like that idea because then it's like if someone wants to make something and bring something, it could even be something you've had already. Right. What do you guys think? Like, any suggestions, topic suggestions for that? Topic suggestions.

Yeah. That's something that when we enter exhibitions, you know, call for entry, you know, they have very often they'll have a topic and then you create it or you have it already and then you, you know, submit it. And so we'd be submitting it, obviously, to the group. I like that. And then we could talk about the work and how we created it. And I think that'd be fun. I'd love to.

Cynthia, do you have any topic suggestions or does anyone have any topic suggestions for that?

I know Roz was talking about layering, you know, layers, whether it's layers of meaning or whatever.

Renata?

Yeah. I was going to say pretty much what Cynthia said that show and tell rather than just a talk or just a conversation like we had today. Yeah. With a screen share. With the visuals. Yeah. With the screen share. I don't know what my microphone is cutting out, but I just wanted to say maybe we could do a technique rather than a topic. So like collage.

Renata Janiszewska

Yeah. That'd be great. Collage would be perfect.

I think that's good. And maybe for that, you know, like we could do go back to the very early days of like in the beginning, if you want to share, put your name in the chat or show up a little early. That way, like there's sort of like, you know, a semi format of like people who come with like a book or something like that. Yeah. Like they get their homework get to go. You know what I mean?

And it makes

It easier for the moderator that way too a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a nice idea. Yeah.

Collage? Yeah. All those in favor? Yep.

Any opposed?

Nay.

No. I'm kidding. All right. Well, on that note, we are actually several minutes over our scheduled recording time. Not that it was not that it was wasted or anything like that, but we are over. But I want to say again, thank you for attending. Thank you for your contributions to this discussion. It's always it's always a blast with all of you. And yeah, I'm

Gonna have to leave can't stay for a chat afterwards. I'm gonna get out of here. But I'm going to go. Bye bye.

Thank you.

Thank you, everyone. That was great.

You want to count us down? Sure.

Five, four, three, two, one, and we're out.