---
type: salon
number: 70
title: Learning Through Making
date_recorded: 2023-05-24
date_published: 2023-06-01
video_id: GW0Vig0R8wA
url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Vig0R8wA"
duration_seconds: 5438
moderator: Lee Schnaiberg // Montreal Canada
speakers:
  - name: Susan Detroy
    country: Eugene OR USA
    start: 276
  - name: Cristina Inciarte
    country: Orlando FL USA
    start: 1970
  - name: Colin Goldberg
    country: North Bennington VT USA
    start: 2048
  - name: Vytas Gaizutis
    country: Everett WA USA
    start: 2190
  - name: Renata Janiszewska
    country: Lion’s Head, Canada
    start: 3151
  - name: Michael Pierre Price
    country: Phoenix AZ USA
    start: 3714
  - name: Lee Schnaiberg
    country: Montreal Canada
    start: 4608
  - name: Lee Musgrave
    country: White Salmon WA USA
    start: 5183
transcript_source: whisper-large-v3
languages: ["en"]
---

## Lee Schnaiberg // Montreal Canada [00:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Vig0R8wA&t=2s)

Hello everyone, my name is Colin Goldberg and welcome to the Techspressionist Salon Number 70. Today is Wednesday, May 24, 2023. And today's topic is learning through making, which was suggested by an artist here that is in the zoom, Lee Schnaiberg. So without further ado, let's see he's just joining in here.

Areas Oh, I saw you're adding yourself as a on the other device. Okay, so without further ado, I will introduce Lee if you could just, you know, let us know where you're zooming in from. Oh hi everybody, I'm zooming in from Montreal, Canada, and it's Lee, and I'm glad to be able to be a part of this expressionism number 70. So that's pretty cool.

And, well I think we have sort of two or two themes today, or maybe like two half of themes. Because last week it sort of became. It was a mixture like I suggested epistemology. And then Patrick said well what about learning by doing. And I think they're kind of related. What I was thinking about epistemology is sort of how we know things, not necessarily how we know things. But how we even know things.

And that's a kind of a philosophical philosophical thing but I was like well, a lot of our work might address this kind of question. And so there's either that, or learning by doing. And both of them are really important I know that for my personal experiences, working with tech tech technologies in the arts. Often.

There's a learning process and a lot of it is. Well for me, because I always deal with like analog and digital together, and the balance between them I have a lot of physical, like gestural experiences, and I'll learn that oh the technology doesn't want you to in the in the road panel world. They have this expression called getting dinged. When you're, when you're making a. Sort of wiggly panorama.

And also in the algorithm says no, you can't do that and it goes ding, and he gets shut off. So then you learn. Well how do I move so that doesn't happen. And so, learning by doing is something that definitely for me it happens on a physical level but I'm sure even if you're just dealing with data mosh, or with. But, hey. Any of the software's or even the AI is especially. You learn with your prompts, as you're doing it. So that's one big thing and I really hope that we can also touch on the topic of how we even know things like not just how do we know a fact but how do we, how we know what about knowing. Is that something, but maybe learning by doing might be an easier topic.

So, I don't know how do we do this. So, I don't know how do we do this. So, I don't know how do we do this. Yeah. Yeah. Generally I would encourage anyone that's interested in sharing to raise their hand digitally by going under the reactions icon in the bottom of the zoom window or the, it's the main window or also Brady bunch. And then under there, there's a raise hand bar.

So that'll kind of determine the order in which people present. And I would really encourage, you know, anybody that, you know, is willing to share work, even if it's sort of tangentially related to this topic, because really the sharing of work, I think, is primary to this experience. And also for any viewers of the recording to get to know, you know, each one of us as artists.

So, you know, without further ado, you should be able to see them, you know, showing up in orderly. Oh, I see. At the top of your window. Susan, Lee, and Christina. Oh, great. Okay. Well, Susan, I'd love to hear from you. So please take the stage.

## Susan Detroy [04:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Vig0R8wA&t=276s)

Okay. I'm going to lower my hand. So when I heard the topic. If you could just introduce yourself and where you're zooming in from to start, that'd be great. Thanks for the reminder. I always forget. Not everybody knows who I am. So I'm coming to you from Eugene, Oregon. It's a very beautiful day here today. Late spring. I also have been out in the garden. So my hair is so awry. Okay. Okay. I'm a digital artist, digital and hard copy artist.

And I, when I heard the topic, I thought that one of the most, in the last few years, one of the most current ways that I have learned by doing was through, was learning to use video editing tools. And I started thinking about this because that was a tool I hadn't, I hadn't done that much. I hadn't done that much work with video tools before the pandemic. And maybe I played around a little bit with. I had a little bit of experience with iMovie and I think I tried to use video leap a bit. But I didn't really have much of a skill base. So I took some editing classes online during the pandemic through a group called artist relief. But really, I mean, you can learn those tools. But really what pushed me forward was the fact that when the pandemic started, I started to learn how to use video editing tools.

And I started, I had the presence of mind. I've not done this before, but I had the presence of mind for when the lockdown started. I did a, I started a video diary. I just like, it occurred to me, I was out walking. I thought I'm going to start a video diary. So I did a video diary for 90 days. And that's kind of when the.

I'm sorry. My journey on using video and starting to make things started with video. So from that I ended up applying and getting a commission to create a movie. A 49 minute movie on anyway. I want to do some screen sharing now. Okay. Most of the work that I am doing is on my YouTube channel and, oops, no, I didn't mean to do that. Okay.

So I decided I would, I have a, I have a playlist called art in, in a pandemic that where I made a number of pieces, but the best place actually to see them for what we're talking about today is, is where is it oh here we go so during the I'm not going to play this whole thing but I'm just going to show a little bit of this movie day two oops walking the alleys normally very are you hearing it. Is not so busy. Okay. So I used my iPhone and, in the beginning, as I said, I created a 90, 90 days of journaling and, and doing the little, it was one of the more prescient things that I did in my life, which was to have, and maybe other people understood this to have an awareness that something was about to happen really big lights and that I should start recording this event.

So I did that. And, in June of 2020, I applied in, got a commission and created this, this, see your I'm counting. I'm showing, I'm counting. I created a 49 minute film. It's kind of long, but it goes through through okay those 90 days I may have skipped a few but and I taught myself I hadn't yet learned hadn't taken any classes I hadn't less I taught myself some about I movie and I believe I made all of this and I movie I literally did not know how to use my movie and I found it in day 5 challenging. I stayed up a number of nights with that, with this dang movie anyway. So that happened and it played, online through a platform.

I usually get a commission platform. What was it? I can't remember the name right now. I could do nothing. It also, was selected for the local Eugene Mayer's art show and played there for a long period of time. And so then at the same time, I want to get out of here today was at the same time. I, let's get back in my playlists again.

At the same time, I was, making movies, short movies. This may be the wrong, it's the wrong. I was making short movies that I called the Corona diaries and those I did on iPhone. Where's the one I like. Hmm. Where's the hair. I did one about a haircut, but having a haircut. And, and again, I was just starting to learn how to use, cap cut and VN, which was the classes that I took.

And, I was pretty fascinated with, I can see there's learning how to jaggedy line. So that led. So after I'd taken some of the classes, I got more adventurous and, started pushing, pushing the boundaries a bit more and looking back in time and using my, portrait of a woman's series that I've done for seven years and using the, those pieces. And I made some more, I made some pieces that I submitted, but we're not, this is a piece I made with poetry, a possessed witch haunting, I submitted this piece, raver at night pieces to a dream show.

I have done my hitch over that were not, they were not by light pieces. Weren't selected only thing 12. But I was like these pieces, a woman, like that is not a woman. And I have been her kind that one. I can't remember how long that is. I have found the warm caves in the woods, filled them with skillets, carvings, shelves, closets, silks, innumerable goods, fixed the suppers for the worms and the elves. So I just, I just kept making things aligned. A woman like that is trying to understand new ways of combining. I have written in your car driver, wave my nude arms at villages going by that learning the last two right route. My actually led in to my NFT work, which, I wanted to, oops, that's not what I want. Mm.

I'm going to have to search. I had it. I thought I had it brought up. So this, these, this work, was a direct result of, I don't know why it won't come up. Oh, I think I'm not, in that, but anyway, I think people have seen, some of my moving rose pieces that are NFTs. I'm going to get out of that, but the, then again, lately, I, the last two things I wanted to share were that lately. I, again, was, motivated here. I'm going to, I'm going to do this one.

This isn't filmed. Mm. So I want to take me to So that film, I'm happy to tell you, was selected for a bike film. Festival and played last weekend and I was awarded I was a prize winner which was really fun I don't think I've ever been awarded cash money for a video but that happened last weekend and I was very excited about it and I really liked that film that film I had made an earlier vision a version of and I again tried to do I did something I hadn't done before I just started mixing things in a way that I not ever learned how to do pressing on the buttons and so then I'm gonna I don't know how long I've been talking but this is a film that I just finished that's pretty short that I'm going to show like it you okey dokey thank you so oh okay I think I feel like it fit idea because I did take some classes, but I just kept trying to do things.

And because I'm essentially an experimentalist in my digital work, I just try, I like experimenting with the different sections and mixing things together. And both of those films I showed at the end were actually revamped from earlier, shorter versions that I expanded and added things back to. And of course, I have to say, having been selected and won in a film festival, you know, gave me a lot of impetus to, I thought, oh, I think I want to do more of this because it felt really great to have that happen. So, thank you. I appreciate everyone watching and hope that was all understandable. Thanks.

Thanks so much, Susan. I have a question. I've never used iMovie. I played around with Da Vinci and Avid and all those things, but I never realized that you can do, maybe it's more straight ahead, but you do a lot of pre-production. That's what I'm wondering, if your images are treated before you get it. What's in there?

On the long, the 49 minute movie, some of them were edited ahead of time and some were brought in. I think iMovie is not, it's a drag and drop program that really, I think it's more tedious and at the same time, it's more restrictive. It doesn't, it doesn't have, it doesn't have the potential of like CapCut and the VN and Motion Leap. All of those have a lot of filters and options and iMovie's really kind of sort of restricted. So sometimes I'll put something in iMovie and pull it out and then put it into another editor. So I go from editor to editor. I do something here and then I stick it in another editor and then I put it in another, you know, another one. But yes, a lot of my work is still or video that's been altered before it's put in the video. Yes. Yeah and then you just have to put a simple dissolve because the images are so strong that you don't have to do like fancy post-production processing that's already done in your arts.

There's yes there's no pattern there's no transition between each image but look there's something I am using, particularly in CapCut, there's probably about, there's maybe four or five levels of different ways to transition. Like they have that, those editors have, since the time I took the classes in whatever year that was, 2020 and 2021, I took it twice, the number of features in those editors is, has grown astronomically.

And that's also gone from a free program to a paid program. Now CapCut charges, not a bunch, but they just started charging. But they have a multitude of possibilities for creating transitions, overlays, blending of overlays, many, many possibilities of how to edit and blend. You know, I'm a layer kind of person. I love the layering. And that particular editing tool has multiple ways. So, I love the layering. And I love the fact that it's easy to do layering either within the film or like it's set up like a grid sort of arrangement that you build and you can see and you can tap into each of those layers and transition and move them around. It's all finger. It's all done with fingers. I'm not typing anything. It's all on my iPad. Not the iMovies on my desktop, but an iMovie on iPad is, it's, I don't like it.

It doesn't do very much. I only do that on my desktop. But it's, it's quite a deep and amazing tool. It kind of reminds me of iColorama how layer, how many possible options there are. Wow. So yeah, if you like to do videos I recommend it. I just subscribed to your YouTube page I look forward to seeing more of your stuff. For sure. So I don't know if I go from left to right or right to left. But I see four people's hands up.

Michael, Lee, Christina and Renata. So, do I go left to right or right to left? I think Lee was next. Lee's next. Originally he was, now he's in the middle. But let's go with Lee because I saw you next. Okay, please take the stage. Okay, this will be very short. Some of you may recall that I've mentioned before that at this stage in my life, I cannot stand at my easel and paint for three, four, five, ten hours like I used to.

I can stand maybe for two hours and paint and then I have to sit down in this chair and I have to relax. But being an individual that I am, I can't just sit here. It drives me crazy. And so I've been writing. And so far I've published two books. They're both murder mysteries based in the contemporary art. Community of Los Angeles. In book number one at the end, the main character is involved in a big fist fight and gun shootout. He's shot twice and beat up. And so when I started book two, I thought, well, I'm just going to pick it up right at that same point. So this man would be perhaps suffering from post traumatic stress disorder.

And I thought, what do I know about that? Well, I fought back to my many years, many decades actually of teaching art in college. I had from time to time a number of soldiers who were in an endless variety of wars. And I ended up meeting a lot of art teachers who taught art therapy classes to those soldiers. And I was real curious about their content of these classes.

And they had the traditional things like painting and drawing. Those were very useful to them. But all of these teachers said the same thing to me, that the most successful course. And by successful, they meant the course that helped the soldier readjust to normal life. Was surrounded. By ceramics.

Especially clay sculpture. When this was first detected, the scientists thought and the psychologists thought it had something to do with muscle memory. And the soldiers go through a lot of muscle memory training. How to load a gun in the dark and all of that kind of stuff. But it came down to the fact that the clay is malleable. You can push it. It responds instantly to what you are doing. And it's in three dimensions, which helps them approach the problem from all points of view as it turns on the table. And I thought that was quite fascinating.

About how making clay sculpture. Regardless of what the end product turned out looking like. How that process helped an individual readjust to normal everyday living within their community. That struck me as falling into your theme for this group. That's beautiful. And you know, it reminds me of this sculptor named Michael Marancho. Or Maranko?

He got blinded in Vietnam. And when he got back and he was in the rehabilitation, he kept on asking them for clay. And he never did sculpture beforehand. And his pieces are beautiful. I only know them because of an environmental video I did with them. Which featured our! Arnold Schwarzenegger. And he went on and on about the guy. So that's why I don't really know if it's Maranko or Naranko.

It shows in the southwest. Near where Sasha, I don't know if Sasha is here. But maybe she'll know the person's name. But that's a really cool thing that it's not just this one fellow that I heard about. But that it's a real thing. And it makes total sense. Because you get to do it with your hands. And it's physical. And it's very, very exciting. I really look forward to reading your books, Lee. I devoted almost an entire chapter to just that in the book. Wow. Did you play around with clay when you were writing it? Like to, you know, get into the tactile feelings?

I only taught ceramics once. To fill in for somebody during the summer that had an emergency. And had to walk away from the course. I had never taught ceramics. I had taught sculpture. But not ceramics. And so I had all these young people in there. And I wasn't sure what the heck I was going to do with them. I certainly couldn't teach them how to throw a pot on a wheel. I didn't know how to do that. But I knew enough about sculpture that I had enough about clay that I could have them do clay sculpture. And one thing I noted right away. Is that as I was introducing an assignment and demonstrating some aspects of it. And then stepping back and waiting for them to start. They immediately went right into it. And immediately started conversing with each other verbally about what they were doing.

Which is entirely different than teaching painting and drawing. Teaching painting and drawing, the students tend to turn inward. They don't immediately start talking to somebody and say, look what I did here with this. And if you do that. No. They don't share that way. It becomes a very personal intuitive kind of response that you're doing in painting and drawing. But in clay, because the person sitting right next to you on both sides can actually see exactly what you're doing. And watch how you do it. And if they have a question about it, they can ask you while you're in the process of doing it. It becomes a very personal. It becomes a very social activity. And I think that was one of the keys to bringing these soldiers back into the community. Getting them to be social with one another in solving a problem.

Even if it was just a simple clay sculpture. I think that it was on a PBS program. About craft in America. There was a. The segment. There are long segments, at least an hour. Where they focus on what they call craft in America. The segment was on all these different places where veterans were using art.

We're learning arts. And I believe there was a. There was a clay section. But I don't know. This is a kind of vague memory from a few months ago. And I also recommend that program, craft in America. It's about art. It's about art. And there were a number of. It was mostly men, veterans. But there were a number of different.

Hand. Crafting. Materials that were being used. And I believe that clay was one of them. You could probably Google it. But. They're very, those, those segments are very well produced. Also. Very nicely produced. PBS. They do beautiful programming. And photography. Interviewing. Recommendation. And that sounds like something to watch. I was going to say, Christina. Oh, Christina's back.

## Cristina Inciarte [32:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Vig0R8wA&t=1970s)

Cause Christina is, I think next. To take the stage, please. Okay. Thank you. My name's Christina. I'm zooming in from Orlando. I'm a digital abstract artist. And when I saw today's topic, I immediately thought of how. I have been learning this entire time by doing. My digital art. When using Adobe fresco. That's the main program digital software I use to create my paintings. And so I've been an artist for a long time, but I haven't been a digital artist for that long. So it's been.

Yeah. Like literally in a learning process the entire time, but especially for me, it's been about learning. When I find a new tool, how that might. Or a new brush, how that might. Look or come across or, you know, So I just wanted to share some paintings where I felt. I, you know. I had a lot of. Learning by doing experience.

So basically this painting did not at all. Look like. I thought it was going to be. Like a painting. That was going to turn out when I first started making it.

## Colin Goldberg [34:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Vig0R8wA&t=2048s)

But I. You know, as I. Was working with the new brushes that I, the, the program had recently published. I basically learned how to create this new effect. And I originally, when I created this painting, I did have this idea. Like. I don't know. I was thinking of the Jay poor pottery, the blue, beautiful blue pottery out in India. And I was thinking of tigers. And I really don't know why those two things kind of came to me, but anyway. By kind of playing around with the tool that I had this newly published tool that they had put out in the program, I was able to create this effect and I was really kind of pleased. With how it came out. So anyway, I just kind of wanted to share that. And then this other painting I thought was also a good example of.

Learning as I was going. I really liked. To use the splatter kind of effect when I. Create paintings. I don't know. I just, I like it. And I kind of, I remember it was like a big. Breakthrough moment for me learning how to use the splatter tool and how to kind of. Use it in a way like, you know, kind of.

I don't know in a different way, as you can see, sorry. I'm not really explaining myself well. So these yellow splatters. I copied them into. A different color. And then I kind of. I kind of used this. I kind of used this. To kind of create this effect where. Kind of like a comment. Anyway, I thought. For me, that was very cool. And I. And I've been enjoying as an artist kind of going along and having, I think Lee had once said something about these happy accidents that we can have as artists. So anyway, I, I have been going along in this kind of way of like learning.

Kind of. Like how to use these things. And then I kind of started to like use what I have or, or. You know, whatever is new. And just kind of going along. So anyway, I just wanted to briefly share that with you all and thank you. Thank you so much. And I think we have to actually not ask questions until the end. And so anybody has questions, please save them and let's keep on going. And next

## Vytas Gaizutis [36:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Vig0R8wA&t=2190s)

We have Vitas. Vitas. Yes. That's correct. Yeah. Let me share. Well, first a little bit of an intro. I'm zooming in from just outside of Sacramento, California, and This is my first salon. So I'm very happy to be here. I know some of you and we're connected on, on Instagram. It's really nice to actually see you and hear you. Although I. I've been secretly watching the salons on YouTube. So. Really exciting stuff. And you're really, again, very happy to be here. So myself, I'm a digital abstract painter.

But, and I've been painting for quite a while. I've been painting since the. Early seventies. I date myself severely here. And seriously painting going into exhibitions, et cetera. And traditionally. It was. Acrylic pastel charcoal oil. On canvas on wood on all kinds of different substrates. Then in the eighties, I started exploring.

Computer technology. My very first was a Toshiba CPM computer. And I use C basic. To generate the graphic imagery. It was so rudimentary. And then in the nineties, early nineties, I. I was living in Chicago at the time. That's where I was born. My hometown. I went to cigarette for the very first time and I was blown away. The things I saw. I said, I have to get involved in this somehow. And. I was like, I'm going to be a computer artist. And, you know, lo and behold, I did eventually bought a package. My first 3d rendering package was called renderize live. And they started shaping things and making them and then rendering them out. Send them to a service bureau where I made. Cibachrome prints from them. And I was all excited. It was. If you look back now and you go, wow. How pixelated and how antiquated, but it was the tech.

Tech of the time. And it was all about the design. And as time went on and it was all a learning process. And I think it maps to the fact that. My degrees in biology. And I have very little formal education in art. I took a few classes in college painting and drawing, but. There's by large biology, chemistry, physics. A science geek.

And now I, my life is actually split. Not only am I painter, but I'm also a user experience designer. And. I've been working with a lot of different designers. And two separate worlds, but each informs the other. And putting on the UX designer hat. We learned by doing we, we think we know I work at I'm on my eighth startup now and it's, it's kind of exciting. You think you have an idea of what a customer would want in their software application. You build it out. You test it and you see immediately where you failed. And, and you pivot and you re revise and you shape it. Same process or same principles. I apply to my art world. It's like, I try something. It doesn't work. But I do it. I do it. And the thing is, nobody's teaching me. I'm teaching myself. I'm stumbling. I'm looking at various sources.

It's part of the process. It's part of the journey of crafting work. And it's a rush. Quite truthfully. I get a thrill from doing it. It's, it's. It's a process. It's like I don't want to work with anybody else. To me art is like breathing. I have to have it. It's in my, it's not a hobby. It's. It's part of who I am. So I'm going to share my screen now and let's see here.

It's just too many screens, too many windows. Yeah. Tell me when you see that yeah looks good yes okay great so yeah vidas quezudas that's my name and I'm going to take you through some of my recent work you might have seen some of you who have seen my work on Instagram might be familiar with this already but I want to talk a little bit about it's I start out with an initial idea like I might have a color in mind like oh I want teal and I want some orange and I want some shapes of certain type but then the learning by doing is and the thing that's very liberating is the fact that in working with things like procreate which is my tool of choice although I do use adobe fresco as well so christine I'm completely right there with you I love their live brushes by the way you don't really know until you get in and start playing around and here's a you know a shot of the layers and hopefully you're seeing the screen that just has one image on it not my next slide thing let me know if you don't but you see these layers and I move the layers around I build them up I collapse them I delete them oh I don't like the way that's looking and it's a constant iterative process where it's evolving over time and I'm going to talk a little bit about that in a minute but I'm going to talk a little bit about that in a minute but I'm going to talk a little bit about that in a minute but I'm going to and I'm making adjustments sometimes I scrap I might get 30 layers in depending on the my how big I set up the canvas if I usually try to set it up so that it can make a print out of it not that I always make prints a lot of them end up being just nfts but I'd like to have that versatility and I need the pixel pixel power there to do it so it might be 7200 pixels square by you know 300 dpi so you don't give very many layers and I'm going to try to make a print out of it so I end up having to collapse layers and build new layers a bit at a time once I'm satisfied and everything is malleable and that's the thing it's like happy accidents like somebody said here before it's just you learn you adjust it's may have a slight preconceived notion but then I let it flow into gee this is interesting this takes me into interesting what if I did this and I really need something that has a different texture and or a different color and you know that's how you end up with the results that you want and these swooshes for example sometimes they're there they're very frequently it's a signature element of my work and that harkens back to back in the 80s there was the abstract illusionist movement and havard was one of the names gallagher is another name and these people were creating these paintings these abstract expressionist paintings but they had paint droplets that appeared to float they painted the shadows the drop shadows and I thought wow that's such an interesting take and then the movement kind of died out over time I feel like I had to resurrect it I thought it was important to resurrect it and bring it back to life because I'm so enamored with it I think giving these breaststrokes dimensionality like they float over substrates over like there's layers upon layers which there are but in the actual imagery itself to make them pop and make them rise and make them recede and this nuance of color and form I think that's what makes it kind of an exciting feeling work and it kind of captivates the user viewing it on this day I was really enamored with green I really wanted to do something that had some green but I wanted something with a little color so I threw in some pink to offset it a big color theme I wanted to have something that had some light with that this is the this is the that's the same thing that's on the call is that it's you know that's the same thing that's on the call is that it's that's the same thing that's on the call is that it's you know that's the same thing that's on the call is that it's you know that's the same thing that's on the call is that it's the same thing that's on the call is that it's the same thing that's on the call is that it's the same thing that's on the call is that it's the same thing that's on the call is that it's the same thing that's on the call is that it's the same thing that's on the call is that it's the same thing that's on the call is that it's the same thing that's on the call is that it's the same thing that's on the And I wanted some translucency and I wanted some lighter colors coming through.

Again, all done in layers. This one is a little bit more dynamic and it's just simple brushstrokes. There's not much here. It's amazing when you think, can I make it simpler? Do I have too much here? Can I pull back? And I frequently end up debating whether or not I should even post something on Instagram or finish it off or just throw it in the trash can. And then I realize that it's not good to edit myself to that level. And I figure, hey, it's part of the process. I will stumble as much as anyone.

Put it out there in the world. Show people that I'm trying, that I'm working on certain things. Whether I succeed or fail, that's life. That's part of the experience. Some of these are happier. Like I'm very pleased with the way this one turned out because I just felt that it was a joyous combination of colors. This one's called A Deeper Thought. I should have given you the names as I was going along. I do name these things. Certain names don't have anything whatsoever to do with the work itself other than the feeling that comes to mind when I looked at it at the time I named it.

This one I call Cherished Moment. And this one had, you could tell for those of you who know about the Liquify tool, I used a pinch. And I really pinched in on that because I had this really swirly kind of... Substrate thing going and I wanted to see what would happen if I felt like I shriveled it like it was a cloth. And I'm quite pleased with the way this one turned out. It turned out to be very vibrant and I was kind of happy with the result.

This one received a lot of likes on Instagram. And I realized that the reason here and my attempt here, I love things that have lacy, intricate textures to them. And you see this depth going beyond. What's beyond that? What's beyond that? And that's one of the things I love about the layers. You can't do that easily in the material world, in the physical world. I've done it in the past and you end up taking a cloth or a spatula and scraping away paint and sanding it down and trying again. And sometimes you get some really interesting effects that way, glazes and things. But it's... You need a studio. I don't have a studio. My studio is my iPad. And I wanted to get that same effect. But here, there's this immediacy. I could fly quicker. I could put these layers together one after the other and throw them out or move them around and change them.

Sometimes adjust the hue of one layer and adjust the hue of another layer or resize it or whatever. There's the flexibility of the creative moment is there. And that's what I love about that. This one, I just felt... It's called Chilled Promises, as the name suggests, because it's got a lot of icy types of effects.

And it just kind of gives you that feeling of coldness. All my colors tend to be very vibrant. You know, back earlier in my career, I was using extremely muted colors. At one point in my life, in the mid to late 80s, I was using pastel and all my colors were very gentle and wispy. And subtle. So it's a change in me. And I'm not sure why. Maybe I explored the wispy, pastel-y type colors a little too long and I wanted a change. And so now maybe I'll phase out of that and go back to the pastel-y. I don't know. But right now, I'm kind of exploring the hotter colors. This one, too, has... I basically took some big brush strokes. And I figured, what can I do to make this look a little bit more interesting? And I use the Erase tool using...

Brushes which have a texture on them and just swap across it, creating the effect of these zones that open up and reveal things behind it. That gives the work a little bit more complexity. And it just makes it more interesting. Like, what is this mysterious object? And you may wonder why I put things on a black background rather than going wall-to-wall. I've done a share of the wall-to-wall paintings as well. I was inspired by seeing Dale Chihuly's website. I love his. When I lived in Seattle, I used to visit a lot of places that showed Chihuly work.

And on his website at the time, he had nothing but a black background and the object there, front and center. And it felt like it was floating in space. And that resonated with me. And I thought, wow, I could make artwork like that. Why not just focus on the object as if it were an object, as if it were a bit of a sculptural object just sitting there? And it kind of stuck with me. And I've been kind of riding that along for a little while.

This one's called Persistent Dream, The Brainstorm. One day, I was working on a really tough UX problem and working with my colleagues, brainstorming possibilities. And this kind of popped into my mind, representative of that. There's all these ideas coming around and nothing's formed yet. You're just throwing out a lot of rapid-fire ideas.

And there's some hot ideas and some cooler ideas, thus the pink and the blue cooling it off and the orange and a lot of motion, suggested motion, droplets, things spewing. It's like there's momentum. And to me, that's what that represents. Here's another work. It's called Just a Thing. This is a bit earlier.

Okay. This is part of the Aliomodo series, Aliomodo, Latin for in another way. This is interesting because this particular work, Aliomodo 69, is actually constructed from an acrylic on paper that I did. I took a photograph. You see the bluey leaf structures there. They were actually a different color. But I took a photo, brought it in to Procreate. And manipulated the heck out of it and created some additional elements. And it morphed into a new creation as a result.

And I'm pleased with the way it turned out. I think it has this energy and elemental sense of nature. The leafy brush, of course, is a bit of a cheat. It's a Procreate brush that's just there, but I use it frequently. You might have seen it in a lot of my works. I just love the way it manifests. It's a great way to manifest itself on works. It just feels like this release of leafy structures. And it just feels really nice. Maybe it's the biologist in me.

And that's pretty much it. Those are great and really inspiring, Vitas. Thank you so much for sharing. And I really like the, what did you say? Is post-notice? He was like, we're going to have to get on that. The idea of going in and out. So I'm going to have to have the idea of what you're doing. And I'm going to have to have the idea of what you're doing. And I'm going to have to have the idea of what you're doing.

And I'm going to have to have the idea of what you're doing. And I'm going to have the idea of what you're doing. And I'm going to have the idea of what you're doing. And I'm going to have the idea of what you're doing. And I'm going to have the idea of what you're doing. And I'm going to have the idea of what you're doing. And I'm going to have the idea of what you're doing. And I'm going to have the idea of what you're doing. Please

## Renata Janiszewska [52:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Vig0R8wA&t=3151s)

Take the stage. Thank you, Lee. I'm zooming in from Lion's Head, which is on the northern Bruce Peninsula in the province of Ontario in Canada. And I enjoyed, I want to say enjoyed Vita's presentation very much. I'm a procreate fan myself. So I get lonely working in abstraction. And for the last Techspressionist Salon, I did a series of figurative works using the AI Engine Mid Journey.

And they were in black and white because the topic was monochromes. But for this one, I chose to work in color using the same rough beginnings. But because video doesn't show well at all on Zoom, and I make animations as well as still works, and I make my own music to go with the animations. But over Zoom, it's just not a very good experience. And I'd rather show you stills.

So what I tend to do is I have a lot of shapes that are on transparent backgrounds. And I have at least five different softwares for layering or introducing double exposures in different ways. So, for example, this shape on the left is a shape on the left of the face. It's kind of like a V shape that isn't at the same set of values about it as the drawing of the face.

It has a kind of half-finished quality to it. And I think part of what is going on in these works is my attempt to blend very traditional Renaissance or Art Nouveau or Modigliani or any number of art historical types of faces with these abstract, very high-tech, very, you know, usually hot colors. Actually, I would say more glowing colors, not so much hot. So you can see how the mauves and the blues blow here. And the face on the right is actually the same face that you saw in the work before this.

So with each successive work, I was trying to find new ways of masking or of bringing in the modern element to the more relatively traditional looking element. And I think that it's with Midjourney, it's very hit and miss. I was using the blend mode for all of these works and all of the ones that I did for the monochrome series.

And then the blend mode broke on mobile and I have most of my work on an iPad. So when I'm using Midjourney, I like to load my works directly from the iPad to the engine. And then I put them in the machine and they broke. And instead of being able to put four or five works in at once, I could only put two.

But sometimes limitations are good. And I have made so many images using Midjourney while I was going through this series here that it's almost a blessing that I could only load two at once because then I have a clearer memory or image of what worked and what didn't. And in this case, I put the woman on the bottom. I just changed the orientation of the image and then I layered in the abstract shapes. So I think that you can see the difference perhaps in how matte the colors are on these as opposed to the ones where there's a backlit quality to them. This is another completely different kind of technique that I've used where I wanted to layer upon the image. I wanted to layer upon layer. And what ended up, it ended up reminding me of that portrait of Van Gogh where he has the bandage around his whole face and underneath his chin when he cut off his ear.

And the color palette is very similar to that as well with the dark, dark, teal, navy, indigo, blue palette. And then the face being very pale. One of the things that I've learned from this work that I ask myself when I finish an image and I want to show it is does it work? And in this case, it's a still from an animation.

And fortunately, one of my animation softwares has a push button photograph mode. So it takes the picture for me as the image is flowing by. And then I can take a hundred of them and find the ones that I like the best. So I'm also going to show you before and afters just to show you the impact of adding an element to the face. So there's the before and there's the after.

The dimensionality of those shapes, I think, works really well against the outlines of the face. And there's the before and the after. And it's kind of fun to dress these women up. Like they're paper dolls and I'm giving them fabric, clothing, accessories, and so on. I don't usually use people in my work, but I know everybody likes to look at faces. And I'm... I'm learning about the kinds of limitations that Midjourney has right now because it's not really fully developed.

I use software to crisp up my images. If I think that they're not high res enough, I put them through... It's called Topaz. It's the one that I use. And then this is another type of triple-quadrat. It's a quadruple exposure. Again, that's part of that series where you can see more than one face. And...

This is a glitch of an earlier work. I use all kinds of different softwares to get these effects. And I like to move them in and out of different... This one went through at least four different softwares because I painted the lips and the eyebrows. And I made the background textured. And then I superimposed.

And as I said, I often have to make them sharper. And I also light them. I have a good photo editing software on my MacBook Pro. And I like to... Really fine-tune the lighting because that can make or break the image. And I'm going to close with a very brief animation of one of the images where it goes completely back to what it started from.

And then I'll show you the final piece. There's a beautiful Renata. Absolutely beautiful pieces. Thank you, Lee. And I love the Renaissance and the Art Nouveau and the Modigliani. I mean, there's just so much in there. They're just beautiful, beautiful pieces. And of course, I have questions, but I'm going to save them until the end because rolling forward, we have Michael and Colin. And I think Michael is going to say something. Michael, I don't know if you're after Colin or if Colin was before Michael. So the first one... Oh, Colin raised his hand. Oh, okay. Michael, please. Michael's first. Michael, please take the stage.

## Michael Pierre Price [01:01:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Vig0R8wA&t=3714s)

All right. Thanks, Lee. Yeah, so... What I want to show today is not finished work. I'm really, really focusing on primarily the learning by doing. I'm really, really focusing on primarily the learning by doing. And because of my physics background and my long time in the game industry, yeah, I'm very methodical.

So my science background and my game industry background is you have to be very, very methodical because you're dealing with complex systems, et cetera, et cetera. So as a kid, I am still a kid at heart, but as a kid, I loved dinosaurs. I still love dinosaurs and fossils. So what I thought about actually was the beauty in fossil beds and the way they're created and such. And so what I did was, I initially started with the idea of fossils as artwork. And so I used a combination of a little bit of a fractal program and then mid journey.

And so I just started off with something that looked somewhat artistic, but realism thrown in there a bit. And then, so these first concepts, a couple are along those lines. And then I wanted to go, because I'm working on a project a long time, a long-term book project that I'm working on, I wanted to start going a little bit more abstract. So how would I do that? So I thought adding color was my next step. So I started working on adding color to these fossil shapes and also playing with dimensions, aspect ratio and such. So these next couple were iterations and I started abstracting it a little bit more and throwing a little bit more color in. But these are progressions along the way here. They're like children and grandchildren of the previous images and more offshoots from there.

And then I wanted to go adding a little more dimensionality to bring out sort of the 3D quality to fossils and how you might see them. And again, upping the artistic side of the equation at the same time. So that's what some of these are. And then I started playing a little bit more of abstracting the shapes, but keeping the fossil-like quality of the imagery, like with the stone background, I've gone twice to the Petrified Forest and it's a really, really beautiful place to go to. You see these fossilized trees that look like they were just alive the day before. They've been uncannily protected over all these years by becoming stone fossils. And they're really beautiful. And then I started thinking about abstracting it more. And more, but keeping the qualitative aspects to the shapes.

And that's what some of these iterations are. Again, none of these are finalized images. These are all test images in this process of experimenting and learning by doing. And then I start to go even more abstract. And now I'm trying to do something very abstract, but hopefully the echoes of the fossils are still there. And if you didn't know that, you might not see any connection to fossils in these, but they're there, because these are the offspring, basically, of the previous generations.

And I think that's the final one. Thank you. Those are fantastic, Mikko. Wow. Thanks. That was wonderful. Wow. And so much to ask you about that. But I guess, okay, we're going to wait till the afterwards. And next we have Colin

## Colin Goldberg [01:07:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Vig0R8wA&t=4020s)

Goldberg. Many of you don't know Colin. He's involved with Expressionism. Thank you, Lee. So yeah, I thought at first I was going to show some video work. But when Renata mentioned about the experience of video over Zoom, I thought, well, maybe I should pull something else out. So I ended up – let me just start sharing my screen here.

So you guys see desktop there? Okay, cool. So what I did was I pulled out a bunch of work on paper that starts in 2005 and goes through 2021. There's about eight or nine – eight images here. So a lot of this – a lot of my work basically is learning through doing. And in 2005, I started running painted services through my printer. And that was just real experimenting.

Experimentational work where I had a – like a 13 by 19 inch format, a Super B format Epson, which is I think an Epson 1280. And, you know, it was leaving these roller marks on the work. So what I did was I ended up kind of pulling the roller wheels out of the printer and kind of modifying it so I could run these painted services through there. And this is an early one where – I started with pastel and then painted over it with this metallic or opalescent glaze that's actually like a Benjamin Moore product for like trim painting. And what the latex did was it allowed the inkjet to really stick nicely to the – nicely to the surface and come up with a clean print. And it also was something that kind of functioned as a top coat onto the pastels. But I really liked the opalescent glaze. I think it's a really good thing that I could actually print in any other way.

And all these sort of wireframe forms are drawn in Illustrator. And these are pretty much all pieces from my – a series I called my Wireframe Series that are done by making these sort of gestural marks in Illustrator and rotating them in space and sort of pulling the forms apart. So this one is from 2006.

And it's acrylic underpainting. This was sort of further exploration of this idea of combining painting and digital printmaking in which I painted, ran it through the printer, painted on top of it again, and printed it on top of it again multiple times to sort of create a sense of space. This is a piece from graduate school. I took a printmaking class there in which I was able to have access to a dark room and burn some screens for screen printing. So this is a – the under – I guess the bottom layer is an inkjet print with this sort of gradient. And then the wireframe form is printed on it with screen printing in gold enamel. So I always enjoy the, you know, the use of metallics or doing things with the printmaking piece that I couldn't do in any other way. So this one is moving forward to 2011.

It's actually a pencil. It's a pencil drawing. And this was kind of inspired by some of the work of Franz Kline where I found out that his big black and white paintings were actually created through the use of a projector in which he projected tiny little bits of charcoal drawings and then, you know, used those as a basis for creating these paintings. So this was actually drawn in Illustrator. And I used a projector to, you know, execute them in hand in pencil. So this one is moving forward to 2011.

So this one here is skipping forward a little bit to 2015. This is a larger format piece. It's on a full sheet of watercolor paper. And then the image area is about 24 by 16. And, you know, I just sort of masked off the area and did this underpainting, which also has these sort of, you know, glazes and really kind of thinned out acrylics, but also, you know, continuing this multilayered process. And, you know, a lot of this work is really what led me to developing this idea of Techspressionism where, you know, I couldn't really feel that calling my work digital art really was a valid way of describing it because a lot of it really are what I would consider paintings or work on paper in which technology is, you know, a component, but not straight digital art. And I certainly do make my share of work digital.

I don't have a work that's screen based or animation. But, you know, the initial idea behind Techspressionism is work that sort of, you know, the term digital art never completely sat well with me as far as describing, you know, some of my body of work. So this one here is India ink wash as an underpainting and then sort of just a single layer of digital print on top of that. And I really like the use of negative space and kind of playing with the digital printmaking part of it. This is a fairly recent one from 2020. And this is actually after sort of the group started getting established.

And it's oil and India ink. So the white is painted in with oil and there's some underpainting as well and oils. And for the majority of the print, the painted work, I actually use a top coat or a primer called ink aid. And if you guys haven't used it and you work in a multimedia way, I would really recommend getting yourself, you know, a little sample or some jars of ink aid product, which allows you to print onto virtually any type of surface. You can literally, you know, put a top coat of ink aid onto aluminum foil and run it through your printer. I would recommend that. And then, you know, taping it down to a carrier sheet just in case it gets crumbled up in there. But it's a great product. And then this is the last one. This is one of my first plotter drawings. And I recently, you know, purchased an Axie draw, which is a really great piece of hardware.

I've been using that quite a bit, you know, to do drawings with. And this is a pencil drawing created with the Axie draw. And there was a little bit of, you know, technical hurdle with the pen. And I was trying to do pencil drawings with a plotter. But, you know, I managed to find a self-advancing mechanical pencil that is manufactured in Japan. So that actually keeps the lead feeding through.

And, you know, that's how I was able to create this piece in particular and doing a lot more with graphite. So, yeah, so that's about it. You know, I mean, I guess it relates through to this idea of learning through doing, because the work is all it's an evolution of experimentation with process. So, yeah, thanks for letting me share.

Thank you, Colin. Those are really cool. And I wrote down in the chat, INKAID, but I'm just curious how to spell it and how to find it. Because I'd love to. Yeah, it's INKAID, like I-N-K-A-I-D. And they make a couple different products that are pretty cool. There's also another one called, it's like super juice or something like that. But it's like something that you mix rubbing alcohol into and it allows for transfers, pigment transfers. So you could put a coat of that onto like wood panels. And then they also sell a transparency product where you can print onto the transparency. You put this primer onto wood panels and you can roll it down. And burnish it and then peel it away. And it actually will transfer the pigment directly onto the surface. And I've done a bunch of work that way, too.

So there's all sorts of interesting ways to incorporate digital media into physical work that I think is really interesting. Let me get the FIGIGAL. FIGIGAL? FIGIGAL, yeah. I don't know if we still have time for anybody. And if anybody, there's no hands. You have a hand up, Colin. If you wanted to talk again or show more. Oh, no. I forgot to lower mine. But we do have a little bit of time if anyone has any questions for any of the artists who presented or anything like that. I guess we can go to, I don't know, 7.05. Because we usually start at 5 after. If there is a minute or two, here's something I'd love to show.

If that would be okay. Yeah, absolutely. And just anyone who wants to stay around after we stop the recording. That's usually when we have our after party slash advisory board meeting. And anyone who's interested in, you know, contributing ideas for the topic for the next salon. That's generally when we do it.

So, yeah, take it away. Okay.

## Lee Schnaiberg [01:16:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Vig0R8wA&t=4608s)

So we're learning by doing. I have three little pictures, little photo showers here. I'm on a PC. But this one here, these ones are, this is what I thought is learning by doing. So these are things that I did in 2019 when I first started realizing that I could do kind of painting with my cell phone with the pano. And it was really kind of frenetic.

There's some buildings. And there's some stuff that's not. There's things that make things fall apart a little bit. That makes it obviously a photo. But it was pretty wild. And a lot of times I shoot things like this which weren't exactly what I was trying for and I didn't really know how to control the camera. And then fast forward a couple years. Years, I learned a lot of ways to manipulate it. And one of the ways is really I got to showcase on my trip two weeks ago into the campground or into the national park.

And this one in particular, I'm so proud of because I really learned how to control that waterfall was like 20 inches wide. And, and I was on my tiptoes and the ball on my feet, because one of the things I learned is that it's, it's not just how you move a camera, but your whole body is part of the movement. And so often I even find myself like, like singing these little phrases as I'm doing the moves, like it goes, but I'm, but I'm, but I'm, and like kind of getting it, it's a whole body thing.

And like, finally looked at all these photos. And I was like, Oh, wow. Okay. So this is, I learned by doing this with the camera, that I could get shots like this, which I was pretty blown away by. And then, and then just today, the last piece of what I want to show is what I've been learning with this is that I could really control like this is brand new today. And it's a new series that I've been working on. And I'm like, Oh, I'm going to do this. And I'm like, Oh, I'm going to working on. I'm calling them pole arrow posits or pole opposites because they're poles. The city has all these poles that people are putting stickers on and graffiti. And I have very little of the, like I have a little bit of the buildings and the city behind the pole, but it's really sort of, I found that by doing this over the years, I can actually say, okay, I really want to focus on the pole and not have like the back part be a regular in focus photograph, but then where I want the sort of the glitch to come out.

And it's really, like I said, it's a very physical experience, but so yeah, I've been learning as I go ahead. And did I just share that or no? Oh my gosh. I don't think I shared it. I am so sorry. Did I show these or no? The last couple, I don't think you shared. Yes. These are the poles that I, that I've been able to shoot just in the past couple of days. And it's a new project. And I find that like the back is, this is the front of my house. Somebody said, oh, this is a city pole. You can see little stickers.

But the glitch is really, and here's, again, this is my house on both sides and actual photo, but then I could really actually control the glitch only where I want it. And I guess the one thing that I didn't show was the piece in the middle that I was so happy to, wanted to share with everybody, which was this, that the, this is a 12 inch long waterfall that I was dancing on my toes while I was shooting and sort of singing this little song that helped me get it really controlled and tight. But all this I've, I've learned just from doing it. Like there's no real booklet or anything.

So I think it's learning by doing. Lee, you make these to print and how large do you print some of them? Well, I, one day I hope to show them their proper size because full resolution, they're 50 inches tall. And some of them are like 14 feet. Like that last one that I was just showing you, this one, this one is 12 feet by, this is four feet right here in height. And this is maybe 16 feet long. And the details are crazy. Like there's so much detail. So when it's full res, I hope to show it. But even when I sell them to people for like six foot by two foot, you do get a lot of the details. You just don't get like as much as there is. And, and when I find with nature and when you do it really controlled, you can get a lot more details. But yeah, these are crazy long. This one is gotta be like 18 feet by 50.

So as soon as I get a, you know, a place where I can show pieces that big, I look forward to it. And every once in a while, somebody asks me if they can buy one and they say they want a full resolution. And I'm like, okay, we can cut out a piece, which is, you know, it's kind of like, in a way, this is like the opposite of, I'm not, I'm not swinging a paint can or throwing ink, but I am throwing my cell phone and getting light into it. It's instead of going out, it's the light is going into the camera. So, and it is very much, I love the fact that there's such an affinity with, with Pollock here, because to me, it's sort of like the opposite, but much like Pollock, he'd be like, okay, this piece, I'm going to have, I'm going to have this piece, you know? And so he, the whole piece might be 16 feet long, but he might end up cutting the chunk.

So when people say they want one, I asked, they want it like the full size, full scale, just shrunk down so that it can fit in the house. Or do they want to cut a piece out of it? Like, what's your favorite piece? And we, we look at it at like a hundred percent. This is, this is a hundred percent right here. So like, do you want that piece? You know, and that's actually, it's not even a hundred percent because this one has been cropped. So, yeah, the, like one, one of these pieces, a hundred percent is here. So like somebody might say, I want that part and I have room for three feet by three feet and I'm okay with that. And I'll assign it one-on-one because I'll never print another one that size. But, yeah, these are, these were a thrill because I really felt like I, I learned so much from, if you see, for like looking at the stuff that I did when I first learned that you can do this with the camera to now, I feel like learning by doing, I really got to control it a lot better.

Thanks. And, 707, anybody, Cynthia, anybody want to show work? I'm not calling you out, Cynthia, but you know, if you wanted to show or David Bloom, Karen, anybody want to show some art? If not, well, Colin, what do we do? Well, I think we're, we're pretty good to, to wrap up at this point. You know, Lee, that, that work was very interesting and I, I especially appreciate the comparison with Pollock in that, you know, it's, he was sort of known as an action painter and I can really see your work as sort of action photography in that, you know, you're moving the camera around to create the images. And not just capturing it, you know, holding the camera still. So that's kind of an interesting parallel that you draw there. And, you know, many thanks for, for moderating, you know, I hope that, we do have more rotation with the moderators moving forward.

You know, certainly it's something that you learn by doing just like you did tonight. So it's not, it's not, rocket science, you know, it's just kind of like coming up with an idea and sort of, you know, helping the artists kind of, you know, show their work around a concept. So I really appreciate that. And to all the artists who presented, as well, let me, inject,

## Lee Musgrave [01:26:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Vig0R8wA&t=5183s)

Something we talked about a long time ago. I mentioned Graham Nash, the singer was a photographer and he got one of the very first digital printing machines ever delivered in Los Angeles. And he took it apart. And, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's the most important thing about him. He took it apart, broke the warning and because he thought he could improve on it and he put it back together. And when he ran out these prints of photographs he had taken, he got what are called glitches across the print, which he hated. I loved, I wanted to exhibit them. He wouldn't let me do it. But your work reminds me of those early images that I saw him do. And he didn't deliberately shake the printing machine. It was when he put it back together, he did something wrong and it made these glitches, you know, which were absolutely beautiful images to look at, to me, to him, they weren't, it makes me wonder if, if you put the two things together, put your photographs on a printer and somehow made the printer do glitches, what it would turn out like.

I wonder, you know, there's, I've seen a lot of people doing glitch, like there's softwares that'll take your photos and glitches. And I've seen that a lot. And, every once in a while you hear somebody talk to me and they say, well, you know, you're, I like glitch work and I'm like, yeah, okay. Something, Michael, something that you said to me really struck a chord. Cause I've always been dealing with the concept of like digital algorithms and analog. When I was a VJ, I was at analog VJ, not a digital VJ. And, but I'd use digital imagery. And that whole thing. And then we're within this new world, there's so much generative work.

And I remember asking, during a workshop, during a presentation, is my stuff generative? Because there is an algorithm and you said, no, they're events. And I don't know if you remember that, but I was like, that is awesome. Like, somebody takes a picture. It's like 30 seconds. A 30th of a second click. Right. But I'm taking a picture and it's like, especially now I'm holding the phone. Like, well, I've got this, I've got one of my phones has got, to keep it cause it's an old iPhone four, but to keep it from falling apart, I have this, a kitty cat. And the thing is, is that when I hold it right here, I'm right on the lens. So when I move it like, like this or like this, or, you know, I, I can keep it so that the camera is really still, but the movements, sometimes it's going this way and sometimes it's going this way.

And, the shot might take three minutes. So like somebody is going click and that's a photo. I'm taking a photo and it's three minutes. So in terms of events, it's not like a birthday party or, or a baby getting born, you know, like a baby getting born. It takes, well, the whole birthing process could be hours, but the actual first breath isn't really that long, but it's so monumental. This isn't very long, three minutes. And it's really not monumental, but I still like the concept of events as opposed to generative and in a digital art world. And I thought that was really defining what, you told me, I was like, ah, that's what I've been looking for. I'm really grateful that you said that.

All right. So, I think, in the interest of time, we should, we should wrap it up, but, I appreciate you guys, all presenting and, I guess we will, stop recording in three, two, one and cut.