--- type: salon number: 64 title: Layers date_recorded: 2023-03-01 date_published: 2023-03-09 video_id: hyYpGwwt2G0 url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0" duration_seconds: 5235 moderator: Michael Pierre Price - AZ USA speakers: - name: Susan Detroy country: null start: 283 - name: Karen LaFleur country: null start: 679 - name: Chalda Maloff country: null start: 1059 - name: Colin Goldberg country: null start: 1403 - name: Cynthia DiDonato country: null start: 1766 - name: Roz Dimon country: null start: 2224 - name: Tommy Mintz country: null start: 2835 transcript_source: whisper-large-v3 languages: ["en"] --- ## Unattributed [00:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=2s) Welcome, everyone. Today is March 1st, 2023. This is Techspressionism Salon number 64. Our topic today is layers. My name is Michael Pierre Price, and I'll be today's moderator. We've been meeting for now about two and a half years, which is pretty phenomenal. Colin Goldberg kind of got things rolling here, coined the phrase, and helped spur this wonderful community of ours. So thank you, Colin. You're welcome. ## Colin Goldberg [00:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=40s) And anyone that's not presenting, if you could just mute your microphones, that'd be appreciated, just to keep the feedback down. ## Unattributed [00:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=46s) Thanks. So before we get going on today's topic... We do have an announcement that Cynthia Beth Rubin would like to make. So, Cynthia, why don't you go ahead? Okay, so I'm just going to put a link here in the chat. With Sue Golifer, I am moderating a session through SIGGRAPH. SIGGRAPH has a series that meets monthly called Sparks that is somewhat similar to the format. That we've been doing here, where people present briefly along a theme. And the theme that we have is called Mixing It Up, which is mixed media. So we are interested in proposals for people to present in five-minute lightning talks about works that either go in and out of the computer, either 3D or 2D or both. Or mix within the computer, mixing ways, things that people may have thought of as discrete media. Like, for instance, CAD programs and paint programs. You know, they usually don't mix, but they might mix digitally. So we're interested in anything that's an unusual mixture. And a little bit, I've been thinking about the question of materiality and kind of... Where does this fit? So from that link, there's a link that tells you more, tells you the time. It's Eastern time at 4 o'clock on a Friday. I said I would be brief. So that's what I'm going to do. People who have questions can email me or ask me more later at the end. I'll stick around for the end. Okay, great. Thanks, Cynthia. SIGGRAPH's a wonderful organization. So, yeah, good announcement for us. Okay, so layers. I think this is a wonderful topic, especially for digital artists and those who work either digitally or computer-wise. The go-to program oftentimes Photoshop or Photoshop clones. Their hallmark is this idea of layers. And for modern digital music. So, you know, you can have multiple musical recordings, multiple tracks. Again, layers within music recording. And today I think it's really kind of interesting because this is salon number 64, which 64 is a power of two. So, again, it's all coming together. So I really like that. ## Unattributed [03:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=227s) Commodore 64. Yes, exactly. 64-bit computing and all of that. So, yeah. So I just I think it's lovely that we're having this conversation today. And then also just sort of the meaning of layers is something that we use linguistically to peel back layers to find out what's at the crux of something. And layers implies complexity and depth, which I think for this group of artists is something that we all sort of thrive on. And also connections and information and strata and evolution. So I think there's a lot here for us to look at and talk about. And I'm happy to introduce Susan Detroy to be our first artist presenting today. So go for it, Susan. Thank you. ## Colin Goldberg [04:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=284s) Oh, and I just wanted to chime in. When presenters come on, if you could just state where you're zooming in from also, that would be awesome. ## Unattributed [04:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=291s) Sure. Thank you. Hi, I'm Susan Detroy. I'm in Oregon, in the Willamette Valley of Oregon. That was a great introduction, Michael, because I was relating to all the words that you were using that seemed apropos of what I create. And so I'm going to do my best to screen share. Okay. Okay. So I decided I was going to, I'm going to, here, I'm actually going to time myself. So I decided I wanted to show a little bit of my past work because it so deeply influences the layered type of work I do now. In the 90s, I was creating pieces like this with dragonflies. And cactus theme using historic processes, which you can see are deeply layered. Cyanotype and then also liquid transfers. Another piece that had Van Dyke brown and then layered with markings. This was when I start, this piece here is representative when I started using layers that are created with matte. And this is another piece that uses that similar work. It's a close up of a transfer piece. And this is a short video that shows the type of transfer I was creating that I put on my pieces. And here it is dry and I'm drawing on it, creating a layer that goes on a canvas. So then I'm going to go back to the drawing. In the let's see then in the 2000s I started mixing digital and layering with photographic work that I was using in here you can see I used flowers that were actually adhere to a piece and I've also done a transfer and then used that to create a layer with my own faces. In a digital way. And then I became more, I guess I'd say, assertive, aggressive about my layering, using the natural world in my own face and started a series called Portrait of a Woman that I've been doing six years now. A section of that work layers my own face with leaves. And so there's a mini section of that project. ## Unattributed [07:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=474s) And this is a more current piece that I did that I took my own face and then layered it with an image that I created from like a forest photograph, put it through iColorama. And actually it's now an NFT and it moves. And I don't have that one in the, line up here, but I just minted that. What day is today? Wednesday, Monday. It has butterflies in it. I'm also starting to work with AI using my own face and layering it with roses. This is an experiment. I haven't done much else with it. And then the last thing that I'm doing that I haven't is I'm creating pieces that look like this. That. I call a planetary sisters. And this is actually a combination of several layers of app work that I began with an AI, this AI image that I generated with Wombo. And then I used my own face and then I layered my face into this AI face and I created her and, I have. Okay. A number of these that I'm working on. I haven't really, I haven't shown them or done much with them. I did enter this one into a, mobile photography and it got an honorable mention. And I think that's it. Hey, that was like just about, okay, stop. Here we go. I'm back. I think. Okay. I'm back. So, I feel like I could say that, ditto to Roz, like layer is me. I, really, I use layers all the time. I've been using layers for, since the nineties to produce work and I, I adore using layers and I always feel excited when I have the opportunity to talk about layers, even though I knew it was going to be a time crunch. I really wanted to. I really wanted to show that. A little history of my own work. So thanks a lot. That was great. Susan. Thank you. Wonderful. You're welcome. I, I do want to have a brief announcement. I still 10 seconds. One of my NFT pieces called Respiro, which is part of the Las Flores Divinas is, I've, I entered it and it's going to be shown in, I'm at Bucharest, Romania. So I'm going to be showing it in a few weeks. I've re kind of remastered it and made it longer. I did a few things more with it and it's I sent it to them, last week and it's going to be in a show in Romania that is focused on, femininity archaic to contemporary. ## Unattributed [11:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=667s) And I'm super excited about the crossover. So thank you. Awesome. Done. Thanks a lot. Hey, Karen LaFleur. You're still muted. You're muted. Karen. ## Karen LaFleur [11:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=690s) There we go. Hi everyone. I'm from Cape Cod, Massachusetts, and I'm hopefully at this point can see my screen. Can you see my. Screen with all the navigators on the left. Yay. See if we can play this. All right. You should be able to see the full screen now. Perfect. Thank you for the segue Susan and Roz because yes, layers are my life too in many different ways. And I can't think of layers without thinking of patterns in the illusion of depth. So I'm going to kind of briefly go through all of these really quickly. And I am also going to show you some of the layers that I've created. And I also want to talk about layers in this context that layers are experiences in life. And as a child, this was my playground. My grandfather and my father owned a foundry. There were 50 real old timers, first generation from many countries around the world. And I would play here with all these are patterns that you're looking at right now for castings. These are my play toys and all the layers that they created. Plus the old timers would tell me these amazing stories. My mother was also an amazing seamstress. So I would come home from school and there would be patterns self-made all over the floor. So I also have this experience. So that today I can look at anything, not a model, but not a, not a, not a, a pattern paper pattern to follow, but I can look at anything and build anything. So this is a Bleriot plane. It's about 20 by 20 feet. It's about 24 inches. And I transferred that into working with a lot of fabrics throughout my career. This is a rug pattern. How they're all segregated into the different colors. And also in traditional forms. I've worked in a lot of mediums. This is a five color litho off a stone pole. It's about 30 by 20 by 30 inches on this one. What you're seeing on the right is the actual light table. I'm working on the left is the final print. So by the time I ended up with Photoshop version 101, actually, I wish I still had it because I think of it as an antique. This was like the perfect medium for me, even though technology at the time was a bit of a mystery back in 1981 to most of the population. But I saw it as an amazing layer tool. So what you're looking at right now is an older piece of paper. This is a piece of mine, one of the first ones that I did. These layers that these little objects that you're looking at in reality are only about an inch high. But I started to look at those layers in that drawing, and I realized I had thousands of these intricate little drawings that I could do something with, which was like going into like atomic energy of layers. It was like kept going and going inside itself. So I started to do this as a still of my first animation. And I'm not showing animations tonight. That's what I normally do, because zoom is a little hard on the animation. So just going to show you a skill stills. And this taught me an enormous amount, because suddenly I started to introduce depth. So between patterns, layers in depth. This is my palette. And I kind of think of layers as sort of this. The middle of the sandwich and the pattern and the depth on either side. But they're all part and parcel of the same thing. And when I got to this stage, the storyteller in me writing all these stories, I think influenced by all those old timers that used to tell me stories in the in the foundry from their home countries. I started to combine text and image, and I actually have 2 masters degrees in text and image. And the layering. Allowed me to be able to play with the visuals in the story and decide which colors, which visuals, which layers pushed the narrative forward the best. So I found this to be an amazing tool which I bring into my animation. This is surface below. It starts in the upper left as an ice flow up in the Arctic. And as the ice breaks open, it goes through layers and layers until it's gone. And as the ice breaks open, it goes through layers and layers until it reaches the bottom of the ocean. Again, I'm working with narrative. Even if you see my abstractions, it's narrative. So this is a recent piece of mine. And this is sort of like a larger detail of the piece. So you can start to see how all the different layers again nest inside themselves inside themselves. They're telling stories. And this is the biggest fascination for me with layers. Is the ability to create a narrative. This is the detail of one of those pieces. And again, I have control of every dot, every color. They're all in their layers, which will again turn around and become more animations down the road. And that's the final piece. So I'll end it there because I don't want to take up more than my five minutes. But I wanted to kind of get that journey in there. Thank you. ## Unattributed [17:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1036s) That's really a wonderful illustration, Karen, of the whole layer idea. So thank you. Thank you. Awesome. Okay. Chalda is next. Hi, Chalda. ## Chalda Maloff [17:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1064s) I'm in Austin, Texas. And like some of these others, I've been working as an artist for in my case seven decades. And I have always really enjoyed layers. This is an older piece. I couldn't even tell you what year I did it. It's called Fish Eye. And that's the entire piece. It's about 20 by 28. And it's acrylic. And working in acrylic, working on transparent layers, I really found it a pleasurable way to create the image. And also a way to give kind of an airy, ethereal quality that I really kept throughout all my career. Through working with various different media. This is a piece I did in probably the 80s. It's called Starburst. And it's an aquatint. And aquatint is inherently you have to do it in layers. And what makes it different from the previous media that I had been working in. Is each time you do a layer, you have to consider the entire frame. Where it's like with acrylics or oil, you can work up layers regionally. But here the process is you have a metal plate and you use a ground which stops out the acid. And you use successive acid baths. So you really have to consider the entire frame each time you do another bath. Each time you add another layer. So that introduced to my mind another way of thinking. You cannot easily go back and change a layer or in an aquatint. There are workarounds. You can kind of buff out an area. It's very difficult. Basically once you've got it in a plate, it's very hard to change your mind. Then when I went into digital, I started out with a fractal painter. It was called in those days now as Corel Painter. And Photoshop. And the exciting thing was being able to keep all the layers active during the creative process. And I felt that this really helped me give stronger compositions. And also a more intuitive creative flow. You have all these transparent layers and you can go back to like layer three and tweak the whole palette maybe. So there were just all kinds of options. And there's some effects you can only get by maybe merging two layers. Creating them separately. And merging two. This is in a series of insects that I did called Beings. And this one's called Champion. I usually work in maybe eight or ten layers. And keep them active for the whole creative process. Also. When I do my presentation, I usually use very small additions. I present them in maybe additions of three. And I call them additions varié. Which means there will be very small changes between printings. So each one is unique. But if someone, for example, sees a piece in a gallery. And buys another one in the edition. It will have the same composition. Same palette. And you have to kind of really hold them one next to the other to see what the differences are. But the layers are very helpful in that process. Here's another one called Winged Victory. After the piece, the famous piece in the Louvre. This is kind of my take on it. And again, you get this ethereal, very lively quality with the layers in Photoshop. I usually use both programs. Kind of weave the same image back and forth. Because they have different kind of options. And here is a detailed image of that piece. So you can see it. It couldn't really have been done any other way than with a lot of layers. ## Unattributed [23:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1380s) I'm like Roz. ## Chalda Maloff [23:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1381s) Layers are my middle name. I enjoy them hugely. ## Unattributed [23:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1395s) Wonderful, Chalda. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. We're moving along very nicely here. So Colin, do you want to go next then? ## Colin Goldberg [23:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1410s) Sure. All right. So I'm Colin Goldberg zooming in from Cambridge, New York. And let me just share my screen here. ## Unattributed [23:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1426s) I'm going to share sound also. So let me ## Colin Goldberg [23:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1431s) Know if you can still hear me. Can you guys still hear me now that I'm sharing? Okay. So I'm going to show a piece that is an NFT that I just minted. It's part of a series that I've been working on for probably a little over a year now. And it's based on some digital drawings that I did between 1999 and 2004. And the series is called Metagraphs. And I named it that because the image is so cool. And it's sort of like the sort of idea is that the actual piece is the code and it's the vector file versus the way that it's kind of materialized into a physical object. So this piece is the Illustrator file. That's the original drawing from 2004. And you can see it's in layers. And each one of these elements is in layers. And the background is actually based on a photograph of trees. That was a film photograph taken back in probably around 2004 that was scanned in, vectorized in Illustrator. This part is sort of like a blend from two different forms. And it's all vector-based drawing. So the NFT part is what I did was, and this is one thing I really like about the Adobe Suite, is all the apps are pre-made. They're pretty nicely interoperable. And so I imported the drawing into Adobe Animate, which is basically the current incarnation of Flash, which was basically sort of dismantled when Steve Jobs decided that iOS devices wouldn't run Flash. But it was reborn as Adobe Animate, which is basically the same exact program. It's also Flash was originally based on a program called Macromedia Director, which was used for CD-ROM authoring. And most of the UI is the same. It's this sort of timeline-based interface. And you can see each one of these layers came in to Adobe Animate. And that software was used to create the animation by a process called tweening, where each one of these elements is in a different layer. And each one of these pieces is sort of rotated and moves around in space to create the animation. And each one of these pieces is 23 seconds long. There's sort of a significance to that in that my birthday is on the 23rd of December, and my daughter's birthday is on the 23rd of June. She was actually born at 623 on 623, which is kind of interesting. So I've kind of incorporated some neurology into my work. And then this is the same. This is the Adobe Animate piece brought into Premiere, which you can also see incorporates layers. This is the video track. And these are sound samples that are used to create the audio soundscape. So I'm just going to open up the final file and play it for you guys. ## Unattributed [27:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1629s) All right. Let's turn the audio on here. ## Colin Goldberg [27:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1672s) So that's the NFT. It's kind of the soundscape is influenced by bebop jazz, which I'm a big fan of. And this is, I think, number 18 of this series, which is minted on foundation. So there's... A whole slew of them. And there will be a total of 23 when the series is complete. So that's it. ## Unattributed [28:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1710s) Awesome. That was a very nice instructive demo of showing off layers, Colin. Thank you. I think those of us who work digitally, we kind of innately, like, this is like secondhand. But to those who don't, I think it's a good instruction. So thank you. Okay. I'm not sure who wants to go next. So does somebody want to raise their hand? Okay. Cynthia. Now, I know Roz wanted to go. ## Cynthia DiDonato [29:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1747s) Am I jumping the line here? ## Unattributed [29:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1750s) Not at all. Please, go right ahead. Go right ahead. Thank you, Roz. Cynthia, you're muted. We lost your audio. ## Cynthia DiDonato [29:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1767s) Sorry about that. I'm Cynthia DiDonato, and I'm zooming in from North Providence. And I'm going to start sharing to get right to... It says ask... ## Unattributed [29:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1779s) Oh, no. Sorry. Here we go. iPad share. I'm getting a plug-in. In order to share. And let's see. Okay. Can you see my... You can see my granddaughter. Okay. ## Cynthia DiDonato [30:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1813s) Let me first say that... Can everyone see what I have on my iPad screen? ## Unattributed [30:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1820s) Yes. Great. ## Cynthia DiDonato [30:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1821s) Okay. I do layering for most of my pieces. I use it to create depth and interesting compositional forms. I like to use my traditional analog water media that I've done. And then use that in the layering process. I also like to digitally paint in software and use that in the layering process. And then, of course, I also use photographs sometimes as a base layer or for manipulation. So what I'm going to be showing you tonight is a variety of things that are parts of series. And let me start with the first piece. Okay. This is a water media piece that I did a while ago. And I began manipulating it by blending it with another layer or several layers in and out of software. I like to use Procreate. I like to use Decimate. I like to use iColorama. And here I was layering. I took a picture of the original painting. And then I took another layer of the same painting and then began to manipulate that layer on top of this one. And then I animated it. And this ended up in the Kuntz Matrix Expressionist exhibit a few years ago. And then finally, the same piece that you saw as a water media piece, this is the last manipulation of it. And this I called Division. And it's NFT up on First Dibs. Here's another piece that I did where I painted digitally and began to create layers. And if I show you the film here, you'll begin to see the layers ## Unattributed [32:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1944s) As they come in. Here's another piece that's, again, digitally painted. ## Cynthia DiDonato [32:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=1953s) Here are the layers you can see in Procreate. There are only four layers, including the background. And so I'm able to, you know, wonderfully, as you know, many of you do, is to manipulate, move around those layers. Here's another piece I did that, again, I enjoy creating depth. And one of the ways I could do it is with layers. And some of the layers are actually shadows that are placed there. And this one is probably one of the larger pieces. And I'm going to show you some of the other pieces that I did. In fact, you might recognize at the bottom, this layer was a piece I showed when we were talking about using AI as part of a piece. So I used that AI piece and manipulated it to get the shapes, the main shape that you see over to the left. And then I did some repetitions and reducing the shapes. Here's another piece. Again, this is all digitally painted to start with. And as you can see, all of the layers placed in here. Here's another one where I was having fun, again, with shape and manipulation and shadows. And you can see the layers here. Again, same process where I was able to use the shapes. I was able to use layers. This was probably a painted piece, digitally painted, that I manipulated. This is one of my favorite pieces. And again, if you look at the number of manipulations that this piece went through to create this, you know, final piece with all of these shapes and going every which way. Here's a piece that I had done that was a little bit different. This was originally a photograph that I used in a program called Paper Camera. And again, there are layers. I don't have a picture of the layers for you, but I guess you can see that there must have been. Oh, I do have it. Sorry about that. This is another piece I did for a show in Providence. They wanted to deal with computers. And again, this has quite a few layers to create this form. Now here's layering just using one layer where I would actually, I created my own brush. And using that brush repetitively, I was able to create a layered feeling. Here I used layers and manipulation of shapes. This is a photograph of fabric. And I love fabric and textiles. And I was able to manipulate the shapes to create this somewhat ballet like feel. These do not have, do not have the layers to show you. And the same principle exists here with this piece. And with this piece. This is another of my favorite pieces. Again, I painted a series of gold shapes and then repeated them ad infinitum until I got them to this very tiny, tiny line forms. This is a piece that I've been working in a series of red that you saw a while ago I presented. And so I then created a video. And this is just a piece of a video that I'm working on with. Again, repeated. Repeated shapes. And effect is the program that creates the video and does the layering of the pieces. ## Unattributed [36:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=2201s) And that is the end. I thank you for listening. Thank you, Cynthia. Thank you. Thank you. Very nice. Once again, great to see. Great to see the details behind the scenes there. Okay. Since Roz has been mentioned several times now, I guess if she's still here. Let's go, Roz. ## Roz Dimon [37:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=2236s) I'm here and hello everyone. I'm actually tuning in from St. Petersburg, Florida. Where my husband and I are taking a little break from New York. I would always say that home is New York City, but we now live in Shelter Island that is also home. So it's great to be here. And my setup here is a little different. And I'm easily boggled by technology, which I always find it so refreshing how this whole scene that we do together. We're really open and kind with each other. My gallery in New York, Carter Burton, is like that too. They meet once a month. And, you know, it's not just all about the, you know, going for the latest ego, whatever we've done, but more about sharing in community. It's so important. I'm going to share my screen and just I didn't really prepare anything formally at all, but I'm going to share my screen and just share a few things I've been working on while I talk about a few concepts. Can you guys see my screen with an image on it? ## Unattributed [38:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=2304s) Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. ## Roz Dimon [38:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=2306s) Thanks. I know we need help. Thank you. You know, I wanted to bring up the concept that we've been talking about here, layering. I've said it many times that I got into digital because my paintings filled up with squares and pixels in 1981. So it's all been an accident. But layers have, I mean, that was the first accident. But when I look back, all of them were layers. All the paintings were filled with layers. And also the concept has been occurring to me more as people have shared things like the piece that Rafiq Anadol has at the MoMA right now. You know, it's animation. It's gorgeous. I haven't seen it, but I just find his work luscious and incredible. And we talk a lot about animation, but the concept I want to bring to the fore here is I've always been a painter. And, you know, we bring up animation here. But my layers. It's all to me about diving deep, deep, deep into a still image that sits there forever to be contemplated, just like any painting from like thousands of years ago. So I just want us to kind of focus on that thought because a lot of us are talking about layers. But we're talking about the way that our work with this particular medium especially allows us to, I mean, there's just no limit. And I find that just, I mean, totally fascinating. And I tuned into a Monday Mints, Monday Night Mints, what's it called, with Tommy? The Spaces on Twitter. It was afterwards. But I listened to it later. And he said something to the effect of, Tommy said something like, he was showing one of his incredible, you know, photograph montage things. It's a still image, but it's like all over the place. And he said something like, it's one place, but it's every place. And I really related to that as, I mean, physically, spiritually, artistically, creatively. You know, my first pieces in New York are about, I've always kind of reached out to the common people and me being one of those. But not so much to the museums as much as, you know, I would always paint people having bologna sandwiches like on Fifth Avenue. And, you know, it would be all their layers and what are they thinking about. And, you know, do they like bologna? And did they just go to the deli? And did they break up with their boyfriends? And did they have a boyfriend? And those kind of things. So I'm just taking you, talking a lot, but taking you, kind of sharing my thoughts and feelings. And here in Florida, it's been such a surprise to me that I'm doing these iPad paintings that have been germinating for a while. I've usually been in Photoshop. And I've shared with some of you my pieces called diamond scapes that are these still images made of multi, multi, multi images that you peel back. But I haven't done so much on the small level with my iPad. And I find it so refreshing. This piece is called, these are just really kind of hot off the press in the last year or so. This is called no diving, no diving, no control. And there are tons of layers in this using procreate. And I love using my hand, the way you can just be so loose about it. And it's really sort of, it's about, it's becoming more, my work is becoming more abstract as I get more and more loose. And there are layers going on in it. So that's another concept. Here's a recent one that I just did in the last few weeks. And it's called navigate in Florida, the long goodbye. And I'm also contemplating, you know, a lot of us are, some are younger, some are older, but I'm really, you know, when I told my friends in New York, I was going to Florida, I said, yes, I'm going to purgatory. And, you know, maybe that's a little snotty thing to say, because you know what the truth is? I mean, I'm taking water aerobics in the morning and fluffing around in the water with everybody else who's looking at the, we're looking at a different perspective in life. And I certainly am one of the older ones in the group. And, and I'm really, instead of removing myself, I'm just jumping right in there and going, yeah, like you can look in here and see there's hello and death and heat and all sorts of things going on. But I've heard everybody talking about narrative, but this is flat as a rock. So I'm going to take that as a pancake and it wants to stay there. I mean I couldn't make it into a diamond scape and go deep in the layers, which is possible. Anyway meandering here and sharing with you something I'm kind of working on right now where all the layers all just kind of obliterated each other in this huge. There's a Ferris wheel on here and it says Florida in the middle and the sons are breaking out and, you know, I'm kind of playing the dark funny side of, of looking at death. I mean no matter how much comfort you have in Florida, we're still going down the same road. It's, and I'm just I don't know really enjoying the series. Didn't have too much more to say except that my layering started after 911 when I was practically on my knees, thinking life was, and there were just things going on in my life where I didn't know how I would go on. And I, there just all these surprises in life you know I was doing digital media but I went to this icon course. And I was doing digital media but I went to this icon course. And I guess I don't know I guess let me see if I can, I could show a few of them but this icon course where I went with a bunch of others after seeing a show it said icons were a source of comfort to a nation besieged. Like I didn't just come to layering out of technology. I came out of a need and a thirst and I heard wow how am I pieces talking to people and icons even though I'm still not really that fascinated with them. I'm fascinated with them for a reason. I'm fascinated with them for what they represent a way they're coming up on the wrong screen. Like you start with this board and you sand it down and there's there these layers in your city with a group of people I was the only professional artists in this entire group. And I don't mean that in any, it just was interesting it wasn't really artists it was for any you copy your copying it's an Eastern kind of Orthodox rabbi who's training us and you're, you're looking at this one big thing and doing all these layers and I'm bringing this up to you because it's all. This up to you because it's all. So I'm like, can I just one more time. And I'm like, can I just one more time. And I'm like, can I just one more time. And I'm like, can I just one more time. And I'm like, can I just one more time. And I'm like, can I just one more time. And I'm like, can I just one more time. And I'm like, can I just one more time. And I'm like, can I just one more time. And I'm like, can I just one more time. And I'm like, can I just one more time. And I'm like, can I just one more time. And I'm like, can I just one more time. And I'm like, can I just one more time. These aren't perfect at all, but my mind was reeling because I worked in the web. I worked at the World Trade Center and, you know, and I, I was doing digital paintings and I came back and put the web and the Photoshop and the layers and everything all together so that people could go inside a work of art. Anyway, I'm just sort of rambling. Am I going too far? I could stop there, but thanks for listening. And I love this group. I think it's fabulous what Colin has started here. And I, I think it's a great record for our time, what we record here and the, and the caliber of the conversations are, have, have really been something to me. I've always been very impressed and I like the, the sort of way he's, he's set it all up. I'll, I'll stop sharing. But thank you. Thank you for listening. It's great to be here. Thanks, ## Unattributed [46:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=2771s) Roz. Awesome. Yeah. Even, even your more, what you would call simple pieces still have the, the Roz Dimon feel. So. ## Roz Dimon [46:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=2784s) Thank you. You know, I talk about paradox a lot, but I just love the paradox of Florida. Like, you know, pina coladas, greenery, I mean, comfort and, and yet people, I don't know, you know, art is about touching and that's been, always my mission. And I look at people and they're fluffing around the water next to me and everybody suffers and everybody has joy and, and artists can connect to that. If we forget why we're here, we do bring something so incredibly important to the world. So, you know, you might get a little, it gets dissuading out there, especially in the world we're working on, where our visual language is becoming everyone's, but, but we are witnessing, I feel we are witnessing to that here as, with what we're doing. Very much. And appreciate being part of that. ## Unattributed [47:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=2833s) Awesome. Tommy, you, you volunteered as well? You, you're still up for share? Yeah. I'm happy to follow Roz's enthusiastic presentation. I don't know if I could match that energy and enthusiasm though. I'm in the city so nice. They named it twice. Calling it from New York, New York. And a lot of my friends are from New York. And a lot of my work involves this work that I think, oh my goodness. I can't talk and tap at the same time. Hold on one second. Bear with me. Everybody's so nice. Share content, screen, narrating us through here. Sorry. That'll be good for the recording. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. We're looking at an image that I made in 1999. Michael, I see you there. Can you wave to me if you hear me? Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much. So this is an image that I created. This is an image that I created. Actually in, everybody's talking about a Corral photo paint in 1999 from some scanned negatives that I made photographing the amazing cathedral in Barcelona built by, designed by the architect Antoni Gaudi. And the name of the place is La Sagrada Femia. And here I'm zooming in a little bit. When I was there, it wasn't complete. I'm not sure if it's still complete, incomplete, but there was a lot of construction going on. Two facades. This is actually two separate sides. It's sort of impossible. One of the things that I was thinking about when I was, this is an undergraduate work. When I was an undergraduate considering architecture, especially as a form, is how to convey a three-dimensional space in two dimensions. How do you present a building in an image? And what I was doing here is walking around the building, cutting apart the pictures, and, you know, here we could sort of see the edge of the building that I cut and then putting behind it a layer behind it of maybe the ceiling actually is the background of most of this, except for that little cloud in the upper left-hand corner. So this is the sort of idea of layering. I think we're all talking about this, that lingua franca of digital imaging, maybe. And I, using this as a language, I was thinking about how to really draw, you know, as people are talking about here, you know, these narratives, these ideas of stories, of perceptions. ## Unattributed [50:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3021s) This is a project I was feeling kind of a misanthropic, I guess, in 2008 after the crash. The economy, I was thinking about that, it's like crashed cars. I just went out on the internet finding all the pictures of crashes, cut them out, layered them on top of one another. I'm pretty pleased with this. I think that's what I'm doing. Me to pull that up. But so what I was doing a lot of is working, cutting out layers. And that idea of not just the layer, but also the layer mask is one that I find in making work. And so here's my curve. Oh, it loaded in a different place. This is a layer mask that I generate by comparing two different pictures. Let me just go to this version over here. Two different pictures for areas of difference. And what's different is indicated in white. And those areas are then cut and added into what I would call a time-lapse collage, which really is this idea of layers and layer masks. I feel like cutting out layers is a whole other interesting facet of how layers can work. And I'm going to stop there. Oh, does it work? Okay. Thank you so much. Thanks, Tommy. Anyone else who would like to make a short presentation? Are there any questions for the presenters? Well, I just typed a question in for Tommy. I see that. Yeah. Are you using the layer mask as kind of a negative space idea? Or, like, are you using it as a way to generate layers? Yeah. So I think it's interesting that you said that you love making layer masks and dropped that wonderful idea right there. Yeah. I'd like to let it sort of settle for a while after we drop an idea like that. Yeah. I think layer masks are an interesting form that for me is reminiscent of a negative in the darkroom as well. So, yeah, I'm generating layer masks algorithmically and then using them in one way sort of to as a template for what to reveal in this building, you know, time lapse collage, but also on their own as this black and white image that has a very readable, you know, the pattern recognition functions in our mind extraordinarily well. ## Unattributed [53:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3208s) With this very minimal amount of information, too, which I think is a fascinating thing perceptually with those black and white layer masks. So I'm not sure if that was your question, Cynthia, at all. I hope I answered part of it. Well, also, yes. And it also spurred this idea, reveal, because I didn't present this week because I presented, you know, two weeks ago. It's like enough. But I think of layers as giving us the opportunity to reveal. Like, what's the difference between a layer mask and a black and white image? I use the eraser as a revealing tool, not as an eraser. So and I see that in other people's work, too. So I'm going to let other people think about that. Talk about that. Could someone want to go ahead? No, you go ahead, Bernadette. I was just going to fill the conversation. Well, I wanted to ask the various artists who presented today whether or not they feel that the layers bring what is in their heads into view in a three-dimensional way, almost like a hologram projection, a holographic projection. Is that intentional? Or is that something that I'm just seeing because, you know, it's a subjective assessment? ## Chalda Maloff [55:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3308s) Well, Bernadette, for me, that's exactly what it is in my creative process. I'm working in a three-dimensional space, like a hologram. Mm-hmm. ## Unattributed [55:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3324s) Okay, well, you definitely got there. ## Karen LaFleur [55:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3327s) I think I feel that I'm just righting you. And I don't know what you're trying to say. I'm just tell you I'm your business partner. And I'm just kind of kind of into the idea of what you're doing. And I'm just kind of kind of kind of doing that to this end. And I'm just kind of doing that to it. And I'm just kind of kind of doing that to it. And I'm just kind of kind of doing that to it. And I'm just kind of kind of kind of doing that to it. And I'm just kind of kind of into the idea of what you're doing. And I'm just kind of kind of And I'm just kind of kind of just kind of kind of just kind of kind of just kind of just kind of the two where the stories then themselves become for me like Roz being able to go into. So in a way, yes, yeah, definitely. Hologram. ## Unattributed [56:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3371s) Cynthia, go ahead. ## Cynthia DiDonato [56:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3373s) I think, Renata, that's a great question. I think within my own work, I often call my pieces that are manipulated and have form, I'm trying to cross the barrier. I almost call it like 2D sculpture, if you will, and it's not going to come off the page and I don't make it leave the page in any way, but I do like to create depth and that's important to me with many of the pieces I work with. So yes. ## Roz Dimon [56:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3408s) I'm going to tag in there. Interesting question, Renata. Mine, it's funny, for me, it's all about creating these transparencies. I use opacity a lot. I actually haven't talked about that much, but that's a real key to a lot of what I'm doing. Some of my diamond skips are like 300 layers of history and when you look at the still on the wall, you can actually find all of the layers in some capacity because I leave the opacity. I'm still trying to make something that's flatter than flat that amazes me that can hold an infinite amount of text and materials and drawings and just, I mean, and yet I'm very obsessed with the two-dimensional space and it might lead me into 3D if I go out output something in that way, but I am still very obsessed with that 2D. I remember being interviewed years ago and someone said, well, don't you miss that? And I said, yeah, I miss that texture and that and I'm like, well, even my paintings were pretty flat. They weren't just filled with I wasn't one of those painters that would layer thousands of layers like that. I would leave a lot of open space. But yeah, so I'm tackling in a little different way and the process when I really get loose with it, especially with the pieces here, they're not commissioned or that I'm not. I don't have a definite story to tell, but it's just loosening me up. I almost feel like the layers. They just. When you said, are they, they're revealing me and emotions and things that are coming out that are surprises. And of course, you know, Photoshop and any kind of layering program, you can turn it on or off a million times and drive yourself crazy. So you got to kind of know where you're going. Cause yeah, you get, you gotta, well, you don't have to, but it helps. But I love how, you know, with painting, if I go back to oils and I put down something on the canvas, it's going to be hard for me to go, but, but wait, I'm going to undo that and then do that different. It's going to be very hard. It's going to be very tough. So ## Unattributed [58:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3526s) Indeed. Great question. Vernetta. Thanks. Yeah. Well, any, any other questions? Yeah. I have another question. Sure. Okay. Well, do you find in dealing with multiple views of reality, have you ever encountered the creation of a picture where phenomenologically you could say you had projected into the future or captured something that hadn't happened yet? Or, you know, what are some of the things that you've seen in the past? I mean, I think I've found like a, a quasi crystal ball type function for what you're doing or do the layers just remain static in time? If that's making sense. ## Karen LaFleur [01:00:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3603s) Well, for me, because I'm working a lot with narrative, like I said, I don't have my stories here and how they match with my images, but that's what's running these all the time. And sudden fiction is usually just one character and it ends on an epiphany, but doesn't tell you what that is. And so what you're doing is projecting to the audience a vision that they need to step into their own future with. So in a sense, that's kind of how I'm projecting the future in my own work. That's interesting. ## Unattributed [01:00:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3643s) Thanks. Yeah. ## Roz Dimon [01:00:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3646s) I'm not sure I totally understand. Are you saying, is there some kind of and maybe I just missed it gestalt thing that happens where you see something that you didn't plan to create or is that not right? ## Unattributed [01:01:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3661s) Because you're dealing with multiple views of reality and sometimes abstractions of reality, because a lot of the times the layers are manipulated. Yeah. So I'm wondering, do you sometimes in shifting space and time, do you stumble into a realm or incident where you hit upon something that hadn't happened yet and you look back on something and you say, wait a minute, here's a shadow of this, that, or the other thing that occurred in this painting. Or this artwork that I did X number of years ago. Or realization that you might have about something, but you hadn't had it as of when you created the artwork. But something that occurred years later that somehow you managed to communicate to your future self. Do you encounter that at all? It may not happen a lot. Yeah. I'm just wondering, has it happened at all? ## Colin Goldberg [01:02:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3737s) I feel like with the work I've been doing lately, it wasn't something that I thought about in 1999, 24 years ago as even a possibility really. And it was sort of like an aha moment when I saw that you could import Illustrator documents into... At that time. That's right. So I think that's D I A S w I S t. So I think that's the start of the whole point. So I think that's the start of the whole point. Idea of doing a piece where he would create like a drum and bass track and electronic a track to like a sequence of these pieces animated and then when the blockchain happened it was like okay now this is this is the place I have to put these things you know and kind of rebuilt a bunch of them but it was an interesting you know thing that happened you know jumping back to work that was done so long ago and you know it's still being usable and that's what I love about vector work is you know it's so easily adaptable in a variety of ways. ## Unattributed [01:03:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3828s) Yeah so maybe some part of you actually anticipated that such a function would be necessary in the future or useful in the future but maybe it did not exist at that point in time and so inadvertently you designed with the future intent without really knowing it. ## Cynthia DiDonato [01:04:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3849s) I agree with Colin's comment about something from the past when I had shown you my work that original piece that started the whole thing which was a painting that I had done a long time ago and I kept dealing with it and manipulating it and changing it till it eventually became something quite different and it's it created a space that I had never seen before I had never anticipated and I think that part of the creative process is that we have this underlying these underlying things within our unconscious that come out in our work and then eventually if we continue to work with them become something else that we had never anticipated and I think that happened for me with the very first piece that I showed you which was very dark and I think that's what I was trying to do with the last piece in the book and I think that's what I was trying to do with the last piece in the book that I had really thought was like the name of the whole thing and I think that's what I was trying to do with the last piece in the book that I had really thought was like the name of the whole thing and I think that's what I was trying to do with the last piece in the book and what it became and then I eventually minted it as an nft so I think there is that something in the whole creative aspect of creating work ## Unattributed [01:05:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3926s) And what it became and then I eventually minted it as an nft so I think there is that something in the whole creative aspect of creating work of someone's work in terms of literature and sacred texts and whatnot, but nonetheless, a forecasting that becomes a manifest down the line. ## Roz Dimon [01:05:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=3950s) Yeah, I don't know if I'm twisting your words. I don't want to, but I will say, when I look back at my own life in this whole arena, there's a story. Maybe all of us had that story. I can see it in others, but it wasn't like intentional and you're part of the inventive process and it's part of you, but I don't know. When I think of all the layering and the things that are possible that we're doing with technology, I mean, I'm probably going to end up doing paintings that are just mud. I mean, I've never done abstraction, but I'm doing such, I'm getting into, to me, that's like an aha. I'm looking back at my work now and go, oh my God, it's getting so, so many layers and things and you can, and I love that I can bring them up and reveal them like a diamond scape kind of type thing. But it's like, I look at one piece, I go, oh, it looks like mud and it's 300 years of history and it's all these grays and browns, but there's a big aha there of a whole new kind of art coming out. So I don't know if that's what you're saying, but I have a lot of ahas. Not all, well, not a lot. I know I'm big energy, but I do have some big ones where it really connects to my earliest days, drawing and painting, where I think I was searching, for something and beyond that brush and that brush keeps evolving. ## Unattributed [01:07:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4030s) Yeah, it keeps telling the story, even after you put it down in a way. This is Susan and I am connected, but I'm on my way someplace. And this part of the conversation had me riveted because I feel often when I do a presentation, I feel often when I do a presentation at the salon, and that's why I like the salon so much, is it gives me an opportunity to look at my work through the theme and then see the connections through the different times that I create. And what Renata is talking about in terms of things that are gonna be revealed, when I was doing layered, dragonfly cyanotide, I never dreamed I would be creating self-portrait, melded pieces with AI characters, but all of that in a way has to happen in order to, in order for the things to happen now that I'm doing, all of that informs what I'm doing now. And talking about the, the, the, seeing things ahead. I, I some time more now than before, I try to envision, and I didn't used to do that. I used to just start working and see what happens. But in some of the work now I'm envisioning a bit more what the end result is gonna be. So I wanted to speak because I was very taken by this. This line in the conversation. Thanks for putting up with the background noise as I walk. Oh, you sound fine. Thanks a lot. Sort of reminds me of a lot of conversations that I read and heard when I was a teenager. It was called taking advantage of chance. Some people are bright enough, intuitive enough to take advantages of chance. Other people are, shy. To use a charming word. Less reluctant. To do anything when they're confronted by a phenomenon. That happened by chance. That's a very interesting. Statement. Well, it came about through Jackson Pollock. He was the one who was being interviewed. People were asking him. What was his name? Well, he said, how did you feel when you just threw this paint and it made this splatter? And he said, I thought I saw it as a great opportunity. Say it. ## Unattributed [01:10:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4210s) Oops. I made a mistake and spill the pain. No, that's not what he said. He saw it as an opportunity for exploration. Right. Right. ## Roz Dimon [01:10:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4223s) Well, I have to interject the words. Did you say shy? S H Y. ## Unattributed [01:10:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4229s) Yes. Well, ## Roz Dimon [01:10:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4231s) I know when I tell people I was painfully shy, they don't believe me, but I was. And I think that, I think that art is a, it's a language by which we express ourselves and shy kids. Aren't always. They're not. I wouldn't say afraid. But they haven't found who they are. And how to get it across. And art is. Can be such a powerful thing for. A shy kid. Certainly was for me. Music too. ## Unattributed [01:10:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4259s) That's right. Some people, when they do this sort of thing. They don't want to acknowledge it because they don't want to be confronted by the question. Why did you do that? They don't want to hear that because they don't want to answer it. That's being shocked. That's stepping back away from what you just created. Rather than moving forward with it to see where it will lead. ## Roz Dimon [01:11:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4285s) Right. Yeah. I'm not sure I agree with your definition of shyness, but that's why we're here. ## Unattributed [01:11:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4291s) I have a, I have a counter. Perspective on that Roz and, and I think. You know, thinking about my own childhood. If the, if the society or the people around you. Don't understand your perspective. And you're not a. Type a personality to, you know, kind of go out there and fight for it. You just kind of withdraw. And, and for me, that was very much. My, my, my childhood growing up is. I knew a lot of stuff. People didn't understand what I knew. And it was hard to explain it to them. So I didn't try because it wasn't in me. To try to, you know, Grab them by the scruff of the neck and say, no, here's, here's what I know. And yeah, it does take a while to get your voice, but as a kid. Man, I just, it didn't feel worth it to me. So yeah, that's so that's, that's my. My perspective on it. ## Roz Dimon [01:12:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4364s) And once you get your voice, then you, then you, then you can. ## Unattributed [01:12:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4367s) Well, you get to a point at least when we get this old, it's like, you don't give a shit. Yeah. Yeah. ## Roz Dimon [01:12:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4374s) Yeah. That's how we feel. And we can be something to those young people coming up who were trying to find theirs. ## Unattributed [01:12:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4379s) I mean, I agree. No, I totally agree with that. ## Cynthia DiDonato [01:13:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4383s) I think another element is fear. Whether you want to call it shyness. You know, fear of what my peers will sink. Fear of the fact that what I'm doing. I like. But someone else might look at it and say, oh my goodness. So I think it's important for us to, for the young people around us, that we try to help them deal with that. I do it with my granddaughter. I tell her, you're going to meet art teachers that are going to tell you that you've got to draw inside the line. You've got to do this, you have to do that. And I said, well, you let them say what they want, but continue to do what you love. And maybe you won't show it to them, or maybe you will, if you have the courage. But I think that is so important. The art is trying to counteract that fear or the fear of making a mistake, not getting it perfectly done. And for all anyone knows, perfect is not what was needed. I mean, again, you made reference to Pollock. I mean, certainly people would say, I've heard other teachers when I taught. I've heard other teachers when I taught in schools see some kids imitating Pollock in the school parking lot, and they were appalled at what these kids were doing. So, but these kids were afraid to do it. And so, again, you know, that's part of it. And I think it's true for all of us, even when we were young, or even when we're older. Yeah. ## Unattributed [01:14:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4479s) Well, the amazing thing with Pollock is a little bit like Van Gogh's letters, but with Pollock, the media latched on to this, and they made it a national discussion. It was in magazines. I used to hear adults talking about it, where these adults would never talk about artwork. It really intrigued me that all of a sudden, these grown men would start talking about this artist. You heard about this artist named Pollock, throwing paint around, and they're talking about it. You know, that was the first time I could recall a public discussion about something. That an artist did, rather than just a conversation that's saying Da Vinci was a genius or Rembrandt was brilliant. No, they were questioning his whole approach to art, his whole notoriety about having enough courage to put this out here and show it to people and demand that they discuss about it. You know, it was wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. Especially when... He himself brought it right down to that one saying, taking advantage of chance. ## Karen LaFleur [01:15:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4553s) I agree, Lee, and probably what I'm going to say next sounds a little strange, but Marlowe probably knows where I'm going. I'm always asking myself, where is this going in my artwork? Constantly, like with every brush and whatever. And it made me think that my first... My first husband, who is not with us, he would have loved this group, is a brilliant painter. He could paint literally like Rembrandt by the time he was 12. Ended up giving up painting and going into found objects. We had a giant junkyard in our backyard, as many of you know. But he built time machines and our gallery was filled with time machines. And one of these clients came in and they had a little kid. She was three years old. And she immediately ran up to the time machine. It was small enough. She jumped inside, grabbed the steering wheel, and the parents mortified. And the kid said to the parent, my husband and I were like, yeah. But the kid said to the parent, no, you go. I'm driving. I'm going over there. And it was like this perfect, innocent description of art. It's like, yeah, get in the time machine, go over there. So I just thought... Because it kind of goes through the topic that everybody's talking about. Yeah. ## Unattributed [01:17:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4639s) Yeah. And it's amazing that you're talking, you mentioned the time machines. When part of my question was, is there evidence in anyone's mind that the layering and the bending of space and time that we do using digital media in any way manifests as being outside of the linear time that we're experiencing? When part of my question was, is there evidence in anyone's mind that the layering and the bending of space and time that we're experiencing when we are creating the work at that moment? So and here you come with the symbol. The literal symbol. Oh, can't hear you. Can't hear you. It's interesting to contrast Jackson Pollock's public presentations and discussions with Van Gogh's letters to his brother. Because his letters are his personal explanation about why a painting or a drawing looks the way it is, why he made it that way. And he never uses the term taking advantage of chance, but he implies that was sort of a guiding star that made him do this unusual image the way he did it. It makes it very personal, but it's always what I would call romantic. He's in love with making images. He's in love with art. And he's expressing that love in any way he can to go beyond just what the image looked like, because he was always outside, you know, doing supposedly plein air painting, which is disgusting. It's kind of ridiculous when you think about it, because he would sit there obviously looking at a landscape, but he never painted that exact landscape, never tried to paint it the exact way he saw it. He always interpreted it in a very romantic way. ## Roz Dimon [01:19:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4770s) Well, I look back at my life and I think, you know, the interruption of those squares coming into my paintings. And I tell younger artists, you know, if you have an interruption, listen to it. It can take you in a whole new curveball. Many people are saying, oh, you should keep doing your beautiful paintings. I mean, I could draw and paint my socks off and it would have been much easier. And I started doing these clunky things. And that's where, yeah, you've got to follow that thing that's pulling you somewhere important. The interruptions can really be important. And it's a risk. We all know, I mean, gallery doors closed right away. Like what you're painting with a clunky, you can paint it. You can paint it with a computer tool to get those squares that speak to this world now. Yes. And so our dialogue here is very interesting. It's multidimensional and layered as all of us are as well. ## Unattributed [01:20:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4820s) That's what makes this group so cool. Yeah. Yeah. The layering of the conversation is deep. Right. I'll make one last comment. I personally believe that if you do not take advantage of, when it's presented to you, in the long run, you will make yourself ill. Well, you know, Langston Hughes and also scriptures speak to that, that hope defers makes the heart sick. You know, and a broken spirit dries up the bones. ## Roz Dimon [01:21:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4862s) Absolutely. That thing that wants to become, if you don't allow it, it will, it will eat you up inside. ## Chalda Maloff [01:21:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4869s) Yeah. ## Roz Dimon [01:21:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4870s) Even if you pay a big price for it, but still it's worth it. ## Unattributed [01:21:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4876s) You know, I had my own moment of shyness where I did not share a piece of creative writing that I did to explain a particular point of view that I had to a friend. And the play was just my way of working through, you know, the issues to make a point in a creative way. And, but I got scared of what was said in the course of writing the dialogue. And I said, well, yeah, maybe I'll just keep this to myself because you don't want to insult people, you know, and you don't want to be presumptuous. And, but when does that become distilled to you just don't want to be? Yeah. Instead of you just don't want to be X, Y, Z, you just don't want to be. ## Roz Dimon [01:22:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4931s) Yeah. ## Unattributed [01:22:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4932s) And so now I'm thinking, well, maybe I need to just go on and send the play. It's something I could always apologize. That's right. I didn't mean that. And you know what, that would be a lie, you know, but it's good to be able to rethink things. Mm-hmm. So thanks everybody. I think, I think that danger of self editing is always present, especially for people who have any introspective bone in their body. And, and at some point that does become destructive. If, if you let that predominate who you are as a person, as an artist. So, yeah. ## Cynthia DiDonato [01:23:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4983s) Well, as William Blake said in his proverbs of hell, he who desires, but acts not breeds pestilence. ## Unattributed [01:23:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=4993s) Wow. Wow. Perfect. Excellent. Okay. Well, look, well, listen at that. That's so funny. I could say something to this. I usually don't say anything, but I'll say something to this. We've all spent a lifetime, learning how to respond to what inspires us. And on our journeys, we've learned how, you know, all the different ways to respond. And what we get from that and to kind of lean back towards that, that quantum question that Bernadette posed early. I think when we look back at. And review in review of the works that we've done, we're reminded of the, of what inspired us then, but also. Also. How we chose to respond to it. And in that, I think we are allowed to remember. It's in pieces of who we are. And bring that forward. In relevance to what we're doing now. And what we might be doing tomorrow. And I'll end on that. Sounds good. We're going to look at the next five questions. This is so good to me. Thank you, Bradley. So, I guess we're getting close to wrapping up time here. And any final thoughts. This has been an awesome conversation here. It really has. This is what, this is the value I draw from this group. So thank you all. ## Roz Dimon [01:25:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=5107s) Yeah. Keep taking the chances. My mother always said life is not a dress rehearsal. ## Colin Goldberg [01:25:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=5114s) It sure isn't. So for those of you that are new to the salons, we do a little sort of after parties slash advisory board slash community building session. Once the recording stops and the tradition for a little while now has been that we select collectively select the topic for the next salon, whoever sticks around. So you're all welcome to stick around and help choose a topic for next time. And thank you, Michael, for moderating. ## Unattributed [01:25:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=5152s) Oh, my pleasure. No, I'm, I'm very happy to have done that and I would just want to, plug Cynthia Beth Rubin's SIGGRAPH announcement. So yeah, I'm going to check it out. So yeah. Thanks Cynthia for sharing that with us. Yeah. And I'm happy to answer any questions from the after party time. Cool. ## Roz Dimon [01:26:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=5181s) You have a show up, don't you? You have a show up. ## Unattributed [01:26:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=5183s) Can I also plug that? Yeah. Oh yeah. I have a show in new Haven. And if anybody wants to show up on Sunday to come to new Haven for lunch at noon, you're welcome. Let me know so I can send you the RSVP form because it's in a synagogue. So we have us, we need a guest list, but happy to show. I hope people come and maybe we'll record it. If I can find volunteer recorders. Awesome. ## Colin Goldberg [01:26:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYpGwwt2G0&t=5217s) So, all right. Well, I guess without further ado, like to thank you all. Thank the, all the artists who presented and, we will stop recording in three, two, one and cut.