---
type: salon
number: 63
title: Breaking Borders
date_recorded: 2023-02-15
date_published: 2023-02-19
video_id: j-nNutQp8wc
url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-nNutQp8wc"
duration_seconds: 5420
moderator: Renata Janiszewska
speakers:
  - name: Karen LaFleur
    country: null
    start: 82
  - name: Cynthia Beth Rubin
    country: null
    start: 511
  - name: Marlow Shami
    country: null
    start: 1023
  - name: Colin Goldberg
    country: null
    start: 1823
  - name: Michael Pierre Price
    country: null
    start: 2448
  - name: Susan Detroy
    country: null
    start: 3357
  - name: Lee Day
    country: null
    start: 3855
  - name: Greggory Hill
    country: null
    start: 4107
transcript_source: whisper-large-v3
languages: ["en"]
flags:
  - speaker_index_partially_unparseable
---

## Renata Janiszewska [00:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-nNutQp8wc&t=2s)

Hello, and welcome to the Techspressionists Salon. This is Renata Janiszewska from Lion's Head on the Northern Bruce Peninsula in Canada. Our topic tonight is breaking borders, and it was decided that the breaking borders can be interpreted in any way, shape, or form that one wishes. I have some commitments from Karen, who's going to speak first, Karen LaFleur, and she'll be followed by Cynthia Beth Rubin, who's going to be giving, rather than an artist's artwork talk, she's going to give a bit of a theoretical talk on the breaking borders theme. After that, we have Marlow Shami, who's here. And then... Colin Goldberg.

Are there any people who'd like to present? Michael, after Colin, thank you. And I guess that will probably take us an hour if everybody has seven or eight minutes or so. And then we'll have 30 minutes with some questions and discussion. I'd like if you could hold your questions until after all five artists have presented their works.

## Karen LaFleur [01:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-nNutQp8wc&t=82s)

And so without further ado, I would like to introduce... Karen LaFleur. You're muted, Karen. I was trying to be polite and I got muted. Okay. Share screen. This is new for me. So hopefully this is going to work. And if everyone that isn't presenting could just mute your mics, that'd be appreciated. Thank you.

So I'm Karen LaFleur. I'm going to ask you if you can only see the image and not my notes. Is that working? Yeah? Good. Okay. I've got the Zoom bar in my way and I'm trying to get it out of the way so I can actually read my notes. There we go. Okay. Breaking borders. This talk is on what it means to me creatively.

Really? I have no control over advance? Nice. Thank you, Zoom. Okay. I'm going to stop share and you guys are just going to see my notes. Can you see my full screen? Not yet. Not yet. All right. Let's try this again. Sorry, guys. Marlo and I really did test this through, but you know Zoom. It's a real hair razor. Yeah. All right. Let's go to basic. Let's grab the screen. We'll go direct. You're just going to have to watch my notes. Okay.

So I'm going to go to my notes. Can you see my notes in the two screens now? Yes? I'm good. Yes. Yes. We see them. Okay. Great. So breaking borders. You're going to have to look at the screen on the left, the little one, unfortunately, and what this means to me creatively. I don't see creative borders or edges as a barrier.

True, a border establishes a line. I need to move us out of the way. Thank you. It is true, a border establishes a line. It divides a space into one side or the other. But creatively, I don't think of a border or an edge in that way, even when they act as a dividing point. To me, borders mean the possibility of something else, and I cannot advance my screen, guys. Okay.

I'm going to wing it. Stop. So I can't. I'm going to just have to do this ad lib. Karen, can you try to do it so it shows all the thumbnails on the left? Okay. There's an option that shows, oh, what is it? You're in keynote? Yeah. There's an option on your view that says navigator, and I think that will show you the view.

I've had to do this voice of experience. Do you see my full screen yet? We do see your full screen, but can you advance in this mode and see your notes? Yes. No, not my notes. So I'm going to have to just ad lib. So basically for me, borders are something that are fluid. They're not something that's stationary, even if they divide something in half. So to me, a border is something that is fluid. It allows opportunity for action. It allows for the changing of a narrative within a story. It can affect a story element, et cetera. So I use this a lot. I've studied text and image for a number of years. I have actually two master's degrees in it. So a lot of my early work, in fact, up to a couple of years ago, was text and image.

And even if the boundary is stationary. It isn't something you can get across. It still sets up a divide. It sets up one side or the other, which in itself sets up an action of choice. So for me, I'm always using this in my work. This particular piece, and I have to move everybody out of the way in order to see it. There.

And the Zoom bar. Okay. So this is a character I've shown before. Her story inside the brown box. She's basically stuck in her life. She can't go forwards or backwards. So her text is set up very straightforward. And on the outside, there is the beginning of the narrative, which is really a snowstorm that's swirling around outside. And it sort of sets up a foreshadowing of what's going to happen in the story. There's also four or five different little haikus and kumar. And there's a lot of new color within this story. So this piece is not only breaking up the story visually, but it's also breaking up the story itself.

Okay. Stop share, guys. I am so sorry, but keynote is just fighting me. So go to the in view where it says navigator. And then all your little slides will be off on the left, but you can hit through them and we'll see them. That's exactly where I'm going, Cynthia. I'm so sorry for this, guys. No. Okay. I'm going to jump out of the conversation, and I'm going to let the next person present.

Because obviously this is not working on this new computer. And hopefully you'll come back in a little bit. Well, yeah. I hope. Karen, can you put your presentation into Dropbox or Google Drive, and one of us can pick it up and show it for you while you talk? I don't know. I'll try. But I'll see also what's going on. I might jump to the other computer. That might help. Okay. The other option is to make it. Okay. So I'll just show it. So the next one is export as PDF. And if that's that may also work for you to show that PDF. Okay. And if not, I'll present another time. So Cynthia, go for it.

Okay. Should I just jump right in here? Yes, please.

## Cynthia Beth Rubin [08:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-nNutQp8wc&t=511s)

Okay. Wait. What's happening? I'm not seeing anything. That's what I'm saying. Okay. Here it is. You should be seeing now. Okay. Hopefully I won't have any problems. But I also have a fairly new computer. So Karen, your presentation was just perfect for as far as you got for what I'm saying. And actually, I started more theoretical, but I'm weaving back in my own work with the theory. So this thinking about artists object and how we use the frame and the border to delineate what we're doing from our surroundings in a window onto the world. And this is my recent work and as which people have seen before where I really am using the boundary as part of what I'm to activate the space.

For myself. Personally, this comes at a really great time because I have a big retrospective or medium sized retrospective going on, which you're all invited to. If you happen to be in New Haven on March 5th. Talk about that more later. So I went back and I looked at my first computer pieces where I was not bound to the rectangle. And then I moved putting in the rectangle and I feel that was something that I had to do to say, okay, it's art. And you can kind of see there's some border crossing here. And in my painting in the 80s. This was a lot of what I was doing I was making boundaries and then I was deliberately crossing them in the work fair, not at all like what Karen was doing but similarly aware of those boundaries, and I even use shaped canvases because I was thinking what am I doing with this canvas.

I hope you can see all of these because you know like Karen I have the people in front of some of them. So I was very interested in looking at manuscripts over on the right you see a Persian manuscript. I looked at lots of Persian manuscripts for a really long time. Some of them use rectangles as a very important element in the storytelling.

But sometimes crossing borders. I liked this example, because the rectangle isn't so important. I eventually really got into looking at Hebrew manuscripts. And I was really interested in looking at the And these are both for Germany, but also ones from Spain and France. There is this idea of drawing from architecture. And then, yes, it's on a physical page. But the architecture creates a frame and then there's some going across some birds and both of these I think outside well birds on the one on the left outside animals. If you look at the Haggadah that's in the center. The people are talking to each other across the map. And then there's a little bit of a cross the boundaries. So that was kind of an interesting thing for me. But mostly I was really influenced by the idea of the architecture as holding things in place.

I wanted to show a couple of my artist friends in New Haven. This is a friend of mine, Anna Bresnik, whose studio was near mine in the 80s when I was doing the paintings that I just showed a moment ago. And for me, I realize now looking back how influenced I was. By her architectural forms and then breaking the boundary by coming out physically into space. Not something I don't have a 3d mind, not something that I would ever do but I found find that who you're around is really important.

Another friend of mine. Susan shoot tan makes shaped. They're not the one on the right it's not actually a canvas it's foam. But kind of using the space and flowing through the space. And this is another influence I think we've all seen paintings like Elizabeth Murray. I thought, Why, why show this group Elizabeth Murray let's show somebody that people's, you know, a friend is people's work. People may have not seen her work that much. And the idea of moving out of it out of the rectangle. So I'm thinking back to this important essay and this is what I wanted to talk about by Mayor Shapiro.

In the effort to apply semiotics. And the idea of. Of signs and what it means to use symbolism in literature. How you can apply that to visual art and he wrote this essay. Apparently he wrote it in 66 I didn't read it until probably the mid 70s, but very influenced by the rectangle, the rectangle is the basic place where we start the basic symbol. In what we makes us think of something as art. And he talked about cave painting. So this is a cave painting from Chad. Obviously the artist or group of artists are responding to the physicality of the cave. But there's no rectangle right you're painting on caves so when did working on the rectangle becomes so important and from him. There were these concept of the crop picture the boundaries activating the space. The frame picture the window onto the world idea.

That we know about a directional pull and then left and right facing objects. And I'm also stuck right now. This is very strange. Okay, so, and these are quotes from his summary where he talks about how the boundary is transformed into an element of representation. So I would encourage people if you can get into J store to read this essay it's really important to get back to my own work, it was when I started working with this point and drawing on top of it that I just hit, I just went outside the boundary without thinking about it. And then I think I've shown this before people but when I started combining the Hebrew manuscript and the plankton. When I talked about this before with this group I talked about the delight and seeing the similarity of the serratium the kind of plankton with their triangles and the triangle and the Hebrew manuscript, and the circles with the diet times which are round plankton.

But it was only like yesterday, here's a couple of days ago and it's ways together that I realized, but the plankton what also happens is that the plankton go on forever The ocean goes on forever. And I was trying to get that feeling. And also in my actual source here, the frame is broken somehow. And so at the time that I worked with this, I took out a piece. This is how I make it art. I make it into a rectangle. Rectangle but I have really moved past us and this is a recent piece I've been working on for two years it'll be exhibited this spring and I when I got the print back I started drawing on it but the curators for the show really didn't want the drawing on the side no you know there's too much happening in your work we need the rectangle so I just wanted to show this because I'm kind of struggling with that.

And just to show again, what I'm doing with now is getting these small prints and deliberately. Enough border so that I can activate and make things come out of the window in a way and they seem more alive and the whole point of the work is also to make the plankton feel alive so if you happen to be in New Haven on March 5th or if you want to come to New Haven in March 5th you can come see my show and there will be lunch and good times and so I'm ending with this to make sure everyone knows and I will that's it for me for now so how do I stop the share all of a sudden I have to get back to zoom can you somebody stop me who's moderating oh I know if I minimize your thank you great thank you so much Cynthia your thoughts and your work always appreciated okay

## Marlow Shami [17:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-nNutQp8wc&t=1023s)

So the next artist to present today is Marlo thank you Renata okay I've got a short keynote and a video poem I very rarely get to share this piece so I'm very happy it fit the theme tonight okay let me just drop my window here there we go! Am I sharing now yes let me get all this stuff out of the way yes okay there we go okay there we go okay guys do you see my breaking boundaries you see my screen the main the main image is dark it's blank but we see the thumbnails on the on the side of the screen oh okay I think we're seeing your last slide you need to scroll up to the top now do you see a shot of the trail no we still have the trail I still see a blank a blank black okay here we go I'm going to stop share oh that was it right yeah we saw it okay here we go again this is a short presentation it should be about five minutes there we go so!

We're getting some serious audio interference there that's my paper probably sorry guys so a part of my practice as an artist is actually to go out every day and walk trails around my house I live in the northwest corner of Connecticut and I'm fortunate to have a lot of beautiful areas to walk through and during my walks if I'm attentive I'll see evidence of humans creating boundaries over the years once they used contained sheep cows keeping animals out from the crops that were grown in this area but no longer in use what I mostly see now are but no longer in use what I mostly see now are bits of pieces of rusted barbed wire sticking out of trees bits of pieces of rusted barbed wire sticking out of trees this tree had been holding a gate so the chain actually was absorbed by the tree this tree had been holding a gate so the chain actually was absorbed by the tree but the thing that I found most interesting about these trees was how they how they dealt with that tension and I thought about it a lot some of you know my background is in ecopsychology so I'm always interested in how they work how our interaction with the environment impacts me as an artist but also impacts my life and I noticed how the trees all behave differently with the wire some trees were girdled or their whole the bark had been severed 360 so they couldn't get the nourishment they needed up the inner bark and they pass away others would just grow over the wire there was one tree that had to be three feet in diameter and the wire just went in one end now the other didn't even impact it so that always impressed me so what happened as I observed these trees then this was probably 20 years ago I wrote a poem called Circles it was written in 2004 and then in 2021 I actually made a video of the poem it's a video poem and what I'm going to do first is read the poem it's short it's 65 words and then I'll play the video poem and I will not lay my paper down on the microphone here so Circles when I forgive my forgetting when I'm kind about my mind's meandering I notice the breaks and ruptures products of momentary amnesia have a memory that longs for cohesiveness and like the concentric circles radiating from the heart of an aging tree the newly mended fabric of my being expands with each return to the heart each growth of another soul and as I circle other becomes one so just a little back story on the making of the video what I did was I recorded multiple spoken audio tracks and I staggered their placement and their volume the effect for me builds from audio incoherence to coherence and this reflects the confusion experienced when a person is unaware of how past conditions and suffering have impacted perception and behavior all the imagery in the video was recorded in places nearby in the northwest corner or in my backyard let's see if the video runs each return to the heart of each life each circle becomes one with each return to the heart each growth of another circle other becomes one when I forgive my forgetting when I forgive my forgetting when I forgive my forgetting when I'm kind about my mind's meandering I notice the breaks and ruptures products of momentary amnesia they have a memory a memory that longs for cohesiveness they have a memory that longs for cohesiveness and like the concentric circles radiating from the heart of an aging tree radiating from the heart of an aging tree the newly mended fabric of my being expands with each return to the heart each growth of another circle other becomes one other becomes one okay thanks Marlo unfortunately we didn't see your animation there was no flow there was just a soundtrack really?

Yes I didn't know how to stop the sound so I well that's okay I'll see if I can fix that okay sorry about that no we have time to come back to you okay so that'll give you some time to go over it see if I can make it work yeah okay thank you and very interesting soundscape that you created there with the echo that was it's very I was very impressed with how coherent the words were even as you were distorting them I got the idea from a musician who did a lot of studio work and she had recorded a lot of outtakes with a violinist and said what the heck let's run all four tracks together and actually work beautifully so anyway thanks and I'd also I'm also curious to hear a little bit more about your background in ecopsychology oh sure did you want a few comments now or sure and then we can we can pass to Colin after that and then if you can figure out the animation part okay we'll come back to you well the ecopsychology part is very interesting I think the ecopsychology piece I got the masters back in 2001 and I was fascinated by the subject because of my own history and I've mentioned it to some people I had a tough childhood and I wondered why it was the woods that always made me feel better after I had difficulties at home and also why I no longer could access that good feeling so I went back to school got a midlife degree and also learned a lot about the I think everyone here knows we're part of the natural world we're not separate but living in a modern culture we tend to be head dominant and we disconnect from the very senses that connect us to the natural world which we're a part of and when we open up our sensory abilities the fellow I studied with Michael Cohen who's he's 90 now and he's still very active teaching and advocating started a number of PhD and master pro masters of science programs he came up with a refined list of senses that our species has based on Guy Markey's work a researcher who spent from 1965 to 78 I believe studying the biological senses that pervade the natural world he came up with over 80 and Michael referred to him as the natural world he was the first person in the world to find that list to 53 a lot of these senses are things that we know about we just never called them senses but the point being if we operate with more than just the five or six that we most of us here I think we're told that we have we have far more of a connection to really the mentor I mean what better a mentor than something that can actually recycle and not waste anything and my god all the inspiration we receive from the world natural world is artists and so yeah so I've been doing workshops mostly at libraries some universities and nature centers helping people remember what we already know this is nothing new it's just buried under a tremendous amount of bias and lack of information and also that we're at the pinnacle of something that's really important to us we're at some sort of bizarre tower of intelligence when the truth of matter is we're I love getting on the soapbox thank you for opening up but the truth of the matter is that we're the only species that I know of that actually can make a choice am I going to listen to my connections with the natural world and also sort of unpeel all the layers of insulation that a modern consumer based society at least in this country, piles on, most of the time very unaware of it or not.

And so that's pretty much what I try to do in the three different workshops. They're all the same. They all have the same goal, connecting people with the inner and outer landscape. And I approach it in different ways, nature's mentor, nature's healer, and the nature of mindful eating and living. So depending on the topic and the attraction, people will leave with the same information but have a different experience.

How's that? Thank you. Make sense? Yes, yes. I don't think there's an artist in the world who doesn't use nature as something in their work. It's just inevitable, I think. Yeah, that's a natural collaboration, right? Mm-hmm. I see we've just been joined by Susan Detroy from Olympia in Washington. Eugene, Oregon. Eugene, Oregon. Sorry.

Sorry, Susan. I'd like to be in Olympia sometimes, but thank you. Okay.

## Colin Goldberg [30:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-nNutQp8wc&t=1823s)

The next artist to present is Colin Goldberg. Hey there. How are you guys doing? I'm doing good. So thank you, Renata. I'm taking the lead on this salon and asking me to participate. I didn't really prepare anything very formal, but there were a couple pieces that came to mind as far as relating to this topic. I'm just going to share my screen here.

So this is a recent piece, a drawing I was working on in Illustrator that, you know, sort of just explores the importance of the art of art. It's kind of like the concept of content creation and sort of exploring some new ideas. And one thing I really like about Illustrator is that it gives you the ability to really zoom in and, you know, it's vector based. So you can keep going deeper and deeper into the work and, you know, it retains the same level of detail. And a lot of times what I'll do is sort of crop out interesting parts or isolate, you know, specific little moments within the work that I think are used in this piece. Visually, you know, appealing. So this was a start of the piece. And then the sort of second iteration, I think, is really the one that relates to the topic, where I grabbed a few of these elements and sort of isolated them.

And then I dropped this rectangle behind them, or they're floating in front of the rectangle. And, you know, it started me thinking, as you brought up this topic, that this idea of borders, and specifically the rectangle also, which is something that Cynthia brought up. And it made me realize that, you know, this is sort of a recurring theme in my work. So I pulled a bunch of work from my archive that I think relates.

This piece was a piece that I did when I was an undergrad back in 1994. And you could see this sort of element here. This was an image of an image that I created in Photoshop. I'm not sure what version of Photoshop was running back in 94, but it might have been two or three. And it was composed from some pictures that I took. This was a castle that I had visited on a trip to Europe that was kind of like an art and foreign language trip that I was lucky to be able to participate in.

And the water is just, you know, an image of water. And I think it's a really good image of water. And I think it's a really good image of water from somewhere else. But it was screen printed onto the onto the canvas. And that was something that I learned from working with Steve Miller as a studio assistant.

As an undergrad, I could do that sort of as a summer, summer job. And then sort of fast forward to this is 2013. This is a painting on linen, where you can sort of see these borders, these rectangular elements, you know, kind of in front and behind these other sort of wireframe forms, you know, and there's a lot of kind of action painting going on in the background, multiple layers, you know, but this, this kind of hard edge element is something that has been a recurring sort of component of my work. And I think it, for some reason, it just keeps creeping back into the work. And, you know, I always remember, during graduate school critiques, we'd have to sort of talk about the work. And I remember getting grilled by another grad student about, you know, what is it about? I just really couldn't articulate it.

I still really can't, you know, at the time, I said it was about the process involved in the work. You know, certainly, you know, the idea of the future and computer related or technological related aesthetics or forms, you know, here's another one. This is 2014. 2015. This is kind of ink wash on paper with inkjet on top of it.

It's another one that has these elements and they're sort of outlined with, I think that's like colored pencil or Conte or something like that. And you can kind of see these squares coming back in. And then this is a fairly recent set of works. They're large paintings created using pictures that I took during COVID during my family and I went to get COVID tested. And this was like the first COVID test that happened in the area. And it was pretty, pretty wild, you know, guys walking around in camo and big tents. This is on Long Island, Stony Brook. So you can sort of see these elements, you know, appearing again and breaking this border here.

And into the picture plane. Not 100% sure. You know what they're all about. I mean, there were three of us, myself, my wife, my daughters, maybe that subconsciously sort of crept in when I was composing these pieces. And then these are smaller works from that same year from 2020 on paper that also have this sort of hard edge element, you know, kind of juxtaposed with more painterly or expressionistic kind of work. So it's kind of a combination of those two. So, so yeah, that's, that's kind of it. I'm not 100% sure, you know, what it's all about. But visually, I think that it relates. And I do like the, you know, the idea of topics that are very open ended like this, because I think it encourages people to share and everyone's shares are going to be somewhat, you know, different.

And, and that variety, I think, is really interesting. So, yeah, that's it for me. Thank you. Thank you so much, Colin. I was curious when I saw the black and white work, the first drawing that you showed us done in Illustrator. And I was curious, are you going to go somewhere with that? I think so. You know, originally, I was, I was considering animating that piece. And I actually brought it into Adobe Animate. And it was just taking forever to try to render keyframe animation. So, I might have to do that. So, I might have to figure something else out with that. But I do like the idea of, you know, doing a time based piece around this, this idea. And, you know, another possibility would be to, I was kind of considering the idea of putting together some sort of an NFT collection around, you know, this particular visual concept.

You know, it was interesting to see Rafiq Anadol at MoMA. And nowhere in the, you know, the space that I've been able to see him in the last couple of years. And I think that's really interesting. But it did describe the work as being on the blockchain. And it was massive and extremely impressive right in the lobby of MoMA. An AI piece, you know, minted to the blockchain.

You know, in the main public area of the Museum of Modern Art. I thought that was pretty, pretty special. And if any of you were in the New York area before March 5th. I'd highly encourage you to go see it. See the show. There's also an excellent exhibition there by Merit Oppenheim, a female artist whose work I wasn't previously familiar with, but her most famous piece is that saucer that's covered in fur with the spoon that's covered in fur. But then she's got this huge diverse body of work that is pretty incredible. So just thought I'd give a little advertisement for that one.

I think there are a number of people here today who took part in the NFT accelerator program. And just the other day, I was speaking with Michael Pierre Price, and he mentioned how the word NFT has in a way become a dirty word, and people are only referring to things as being on the blockchain. So again, that's probably MoMA.

It's institutionalized an NFT by presenting it to the public, but they don't call it an NFT because of perhaps some negativity that somehow surrounds that word due to recent events in the cryptosphere. I agree. I think it's kind of interesting. And also just the idea of terminology and how it impacts the way people think about media. When I was in grad school, Patrick and I were enrolled in the MFA Computer Art Program at Bowling Green. And the undergraduate program had already been renamed Digital Art. So I'm thinking like we get the degree where it makes me think of these old cray mainframes back in the furnace room or something like that. It wasn't quite like that. But I mean, there was a relationship between Bowling Green and Silicon Graphics that really helped boost a lot of enrollment.

So it was something like that. But then there was also this enrollment, you know, a little bit while before I came in there. And I thought, wow, you know, they have a Silicon graphics, Onyx computer, you know, this is like pulling me into that program, like a magnet. And then by the time I got there, you know, it's sitting in the back of like some storage room, desktop machines had far outpaced it in like a couple of years, you know, so it's really pretty remarkable how, how quickly things change. Mm hmm.

I'm wondering now whether Marlo would like to try showing us the, you're muted, Marlo. You're muted. Can't hear you. I'm sorry, I was captivated by the discussion. So I haven't been listening it out. Okay,

## Michael Pierre Price [40:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-nNutQp8wc&t=2448s)

We have Michael Pierre Price standing by. And I think he has some, some questions. So Michael, do you have a question for Tashu? Yes, thank you. Wonderful presentation so far. So let me go ahead and share my screen here. I'm assuming it's, I'm assuming it's not the same screen. Yes, it's visible. Yes, it's good. So this, this was a piece that I thought kind of fit the topic rather well.

I like that I like the subject matter, not only in regards to the physical borders of images, but, but also breaking, breaking borders, breaking boundaries that might be a little bit difficult for people to understand. Right. It might be mental, the biases we have, etc. And so I appreciate the previous folks who have shared their work.

This was one I did probably about six or seven years ago. And I was just really looking at how the surrealists oftentimes paint, you know, how we look at ourselves, how we look at the world, how we look at art being created. So this was one that kind of has that circular nature that there's a disembodied skeletal hand painting on the canvas. You've got the artist mannequin sitting there.

There are ants crawling outside the painting and then also one crawling right on the border and on the skull there's an ant as well. So there, there's that. There's that. There's that sort of boundary or where the boundaries lie between what we consider reality and what we consider beyond that as well. So this was one piece I thought that kind of fit the subject matter pretty nicely.

This was one of my earliest surreal works that I did back in 2014. And it was a piece that really highlights the profound change that both special relativity and general relativity brought to physics. And this piece is called The Disillusion of the Fabric of Time and Space. And so I basically broke up the piece into 28 pieces and then kind of put them back together a little bit off center from one another to indicate that sense of how general relativity changed our whole concept of what space is and the notion of time as well. So that's what this piece is all about.

And then more recently, I've been thinking about boundaries with regard and borders with regard to how we see ourselves and how we present ourselves to the world. And so we each have our own masks that we present to the world. And this is how we look at ourselves in the mirror and what we see and what we like and don't like and what we want to change and what we kind of recoil from. So this is a piece that kind of is looking at some of that aspect.

This is another piece that I did about six or seven years ago, another physics and cultural piece. Actually, this is called Anno Domini 1054. This was when the... Great supernova that became so bright in the sky that pretty much everyone in the world saw in the year 1054. It has since become what we now know, modern day wise, is the Crab Nebula.

And so this piece is very symbolic. It's kind of my... Almost... It's an admonition to Western culture of seeing itself as the only real culture in the world. Back in 1054, European centric culture was deep in the Dark Ages and the hub of thought and intellect was really in the Muslim world and in China and India and pretty much everywhere other than Western Europe. And so the cross has the shadow that's being cast upon this image. The cross is really off camera, if you will, but it's always prominent and pretty much all of the artwork that was being created at that time was very religious based. And here there's a circle.

And then there's a circle. Just to the right. And if you look down here, it's not too easy to see, but the Arab world word for algebra is written here. And there's text here from the Arab world dealing with geometry where a lot of new thought out where the word algorithm comes from. And so this is a... This is our first work. This is a highly symbolic piece.

Okay, this was one I did just a few years ago for one of my solo shows. And this one breaks the boundaries in a number of ways. If anybody has their smartphone on them, there are three QR code cubes here. They actually do work. If you want to try your smartphone reading the QR codes, have at it. The one on the very left here takes you to a web page that explains all the symbolism in this particular piece. This one is called Huit Clos.

In English, we know this is no exit. Jean-Paul Sartre's famous work. I based that here with quantum mechanics being the... The... The... The basis for a lot of this in here. And I don't want to get too deep into this symbology. But the QR code up in here explains what the heck the square root of negative one is. So if you need... If you know you want a lesson on that, that's cool. Anyway, so that was another way for me of breaking a boundary was to actually integrate QR codes into this artwork and use that as an educational device to go along with it. Along with the piece.

This is another very recent piece that I've been working on a little bit of a series using AI and a few other techniques that I've been playing around with. But I like the idea of portals where a painting could be a portal into something else. Or maybe it looks like a painting, but it also maybe isn't a painting. So in this one, if you notice this, this young woman here that's walking by looking at this potential painting or portal, you notice here at the bottom that there's light shining on the floor tiles here from this light source in this back portal or painting. But then on the fourth in the foreground, there's also that light shining here. So I wanted to do something kind of subtle, but that would connect this and make you pause and think about it.

And this is another one in this series of ideas looking at paintings and portals. If you look at this really quickly, it almost looks like you're looking down the hallway with this woman right next to a staircase going up. But if you notice down here. There's a boundary here. So again, is this a painting? Is this something else? So it's just I'm just trying to play with perception and this idea of portals.

And this is another take on this idea of a painting where there's this pathway. This is this particular pathway. This is another piece I'm calling Minion of the Dark, the Dark Man. And in this one I really wanted this character, this potentially ominous character to be staring straight out at the viewer and stepping onto this pathway where potentially this character might come directly towards you. You don't know it's kind of paused in mid step here.

And lastly, this one is called Black Holes, Boltzmann Brains, and the Heat Death of the Universe. And I won't get too deep into the physics of this, but basically black holes as popularly talked about are these massively large, odd-shaped holes. And they're actually objects in the universe that suck all matter and light and energy into it. And for the longest time it was thought that they completely destroyed all of the information that went into whatever got sucked into them was later discovered with Stephen Hawking and others that actually the surface of a black hole maintains the information of everything that's got sucked into it, which has led some physicists to theorize that maybe our universe is actually what would be commonly known as a hologram, where at a higher dimension, the surface at that higher dimension holds all of the information that we experience as a three-dimensional world in our universe.

So it gets to be kind of heady stuff. But. This was another boundary that I thought was rather interesting to take a look at that I wanted to try and put my hand at creating some imagery towards. So thank you. Thank you very much, Michael. The Boltzmann brain. It's a concept that Michael introduced us to during the roundtable discussion we had with Tommy, Roz. And I've not been able to stop thinking about that for a while.

Marlo, how's it going there? You're muted again. You're muted. I can try it again. Sure. It seems that the video should be able to hear you. It seems that the audio is able to be played. So let me bring up that one slide. That's the slide. Let me go to share. And I'll keep my fingers crossed here.

.!!!!. Wilted the breaks and ruptures, products of momentary amnesia, they have a memory. A memory that longs for cohesiveness. And like the concentric circles radiating from the heart of an aging tree, the newly mended fabric of my being expands. Other, with each return to the heart, each growth of another circle, other becomes one.

So you all, oh, did you see this time? Okay. Yes, yes. Thank you. That was beautiful. Thanks for your patience. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you. Thank you. I didn't ask, I asked at the beginning, but I'm going to ask again if there are any other artists who wish to show us anything. Susan?

Anyone else? Lee? Okay. In that order then, please. We'll start with Susan Detroy. Hi, thanks for including me today, although I was late. I thought about this concept because, there's, and I was looking through my work and I realized like, oh my gosh. Yes.

## Susan Detroy [55:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-nNutQp8wc&t=3357s)

I use this. So I'm going to attempt to screen share. We'll see what happens. Oops. Here we go. All right. So I pulled together a few pieces into an album. And this is my first album. And this is, I'm going to start with the latest piece. Let's see if you can, I don't know if you'll be able to hear. I didn't think about the, this piece is an NFT.

And are you seeing things? Okay, I didn't check. Okay. This piece is an NFT on the blockchain. In the collection I've been doing since July. It's called Las Flores Divinas. And this particular piece is called, oops. All right, let's make it play again. It's called La Corazon Fantasia. And I talked about it some in the NFT Monday.

And of course, as it relates, I have parts of it that often I like to frame things in. And I think that comes from a couple things. My... My years of working as a black and white photographer, framing art, and also a number of times I, I'm going to show another one while I'm talking. This is in that same series.

And I worked, I was a student in systematic botany for a number of years. And I worked in. At Erbarium. And I think that influenced my sensitivity and my visual language in terms of placing specimens on pieces of paper and holding them and putting them in containers. And I've always felt in my work that I like the feeling of a piece piece being contained.

So I'll go to another one. This is another one in that same series. You can see I do have a fallback mode that I like that shows, contains the work. And here's one more. Where I'm using the borders as a way to keep the art in one place. There's something about not having a border that feels psychologically uncomfortable to me. So I often use borders. And I often do a couple other things.

This work, I just, started. And I'll let it play and you'll see. The next two pieces are reconfiguring still imagery that I made from 2016 into 2020. And I'm re making them into moving pieces. And this one I just finished this weekend. And this one, again, with the border. I these all have sound but I forgot to press the sound info thing when I was doing the screen sharing. I'm so far I've been posting these that are called portrait of a woman 2.3, which refers to 2023.

And then the subtitles like built for the future. So I'm taking old things and creating them so they're more now and into the future. I can't remember the title of this one. I can't remember it. And this is one that may become where you can see that I like to use actually a lot of the framing I use is from Snapseed. And also in StoryZ, I'm doing some alterating.

And I just, I think it wouldn't be complete without showing. And I just, I think it wouldn't be complete without showing. And I just, I think it wouldn't be complete without showing. And I just, I think it wouldn't be complete without showing. And I just, I think it wouldn't be complete without showing. And I just, I think it wouldn't be complete without showing. And I just, I think it wouldn't be complete without showing. And I just, I think it wouldn't be complete without showing. And I just, I think it wouldn't be complete without showing. And I just, I think it wouldn't be complete without showing. And I just, I think it wouldn't be complete without showing. And I just, I think it wouldn't be complete without showing. And I just, I think it wouldn't be complete without showing. New pieces that I've worked on that may become NFTs that use app filtered filters from the app which in the hipstamatic camera app and I think that's it I just really enjoy the let's get back in here I really enjoy the ability the giving assigning a topic and to be able to look at my own work through the lens of that topic and even though it was a really short presentation I just thought oh I'm gonna look at my photos and share a few but I can see how it fits you and I that was fun thank you thank you very much Susan and we did hear your sound it was beautiful I could hear it clearly so it played with every piece that you opened that's good to know because it didn't play on my iPad so I didn't think the volume between this the balance between your voice and the soundtrack was just perfect oh good great totally unintended thank you're welcome I got the Zoom gods are with me today thank you I know that you do a lot of your work on iPad and you are using apps from the app store and I think that maybe some of the people here today would like to know can you drop a name or two of your apps sure to the chat please I will thank you yes and I am now on my NFT pieces putting in each of the NFTs I'm putting the names of the apps that I'm using and I'm going to share the links that I've used for the pieces just FYI yes I will put that in the chat good I get asked a lot about software and I think that there's so many choices that artists can make whether you're working on a desktop or an iOS or a mobile device that there's no problem sharing all the information because nobody no two people are going to make the same choices with right using those apps so I think that's a good point I think that's a good point for most things so yeah it's in general I've amped up a bit how much I share well I gladly share but I'm and I'm also screen recording and sharing clips from those screen video recordings that I'm making while I'm creating and I'm doing that mostly on Twitter but some on Instagram a bit and other places so and yes I agree I had that conversation in the NFT Mint Monday a couple days ago yeah so I'll put that in the chat thank you're welcome

## Lee Day [01:04:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-nNutQp8wc&t=3855s)

Lee Day would you like to share please sure I hadn't really thought about before you know everyone started talking but the idea of borders is the way that I think about it is that I think about it as a way to share my ideas and I think of it as frames being again being a photographer everything is a frame and you spend your whole life just with this frame and pointing in different places and trying to recontextualize what's in the frame to fit in the frame and I guess in some ways I've been a bit I don't know whether uncomfortable about that with that but I've certainly felt limited by that and so let's see one of the things that I've done is that showing I think that looks about right are you seeing a bunch of photos at this point yes we are yes so one of the things that I that I've started to do or that I quite a while ago started to do was take the individual images which I sort of tend to think of as impressions or idea or just moments like you glance at things and see things and then in your mind you're assembling those into a larger picture of the world around us so I would start doing these panoramics or scenes these are actual this is a 360.

But it's broken up because you know when you're out there and looking at the world you don't you don't see everything you see parts of it you remember bits and pieces of the scene or the moment and so that's sort of what I was I was sort of trying to capture in this or you know and the idea that everything isn't also I'm not really very well versed in it so I'm perfectly structured and the world is sort of moving in front of us.

Different layers, both inside and outside. And frankly, I've never really been able to figure out whether the actual images should be cut out and put on the wall that way, or whether they should just rest in sort of a black inky darkness and float around there. So this is a bad compromise where the frame is just chopping it off right at the edge. So this is a strange one. This is actually the Bridge of Sighs when they were in Venice, when they were redoing it. And, you know, even the sky is breaking apart.

And then a couple of others. So these are our windows, again, where your different impressions and the different pieces that are in this is all in the same window. When you put them together, the whole becomes more than the individual or the multiple layers. You end up focusing on different pieces. But! It's twisted and stretched out and becomes something else.

But those were my thoughts. They were actually brought up more by hearing other people talk about this. And it's really interesting. Thank you very much, Lee. I was really intrigued by the second photograph you showed where you have a kind of blue, bumpy, architectural, big, huge thing. And then you have buildings in the background. Yeah. Do you know the one I mean? Yeah. Where was that shot?

That is in Austria. I'm trying to remember. I think it's Graz looking out of the Modern Art Museum across the river towards the castle. I had the city correct. But it is Modern Art Museum. And it's sort of a blobby construction. And the windows are blobby and all of that. Thank you. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts. Your work is

## Greggory Hill [01:08:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-nNutQp8wc&t=4107s)

Always amazing. Thank you. Greggory Hill would like to present. And I apologize for not contacting him sooner. If you're here, Gregory. Oh, no problem. Thank you. Yes. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. So I just want I just put together a quick presentation. But really, I wanted to talk a little bit if I could about a show that I'm in. I live in a small town outside of Cleve. And I'm a! I live in Cleveland. And a fellow artist and I approached the local art center that's been around for about 50 years. It's a very traditional art center. It's never gotten involved in digital art to any extent. And we sat down with them a few months ago. And the outcome of our discussions was their first digital art show ever, which was very exciting, which happened, which opened, I think, three weeks ago, I want to say.

But even more interestingly, they put together a panel. Oh, yeah. And it was a very interesting panel. And I think it was a very interesting panel for the five artists in the show, including myself. But we had an audience and had no idea what to expect. And it was wonderful. We had standing room only. So I just wanted to share that with the group and I'll share it in the chat.

We have a video of the discussion. And it was very interesting. One of us was an AI artist. We had a graphic illustrator. I do algorithmic art. We had a photographer and a video artist, two of whom are professors at the Cleveland Institute of Art. And I intended to, I believe I mentioned Techspressionism in the panel discussion. But regardless, I invited my fellow panelists to join the group. So I hope they will at some point because there's some really fascinating work that they're producing.

So as we as we were talking in the beginning here, I realized that one of the pieces that I included in the show, very literally fits into the idea of breaking borders. How do I click entire screen? When you do share, you select the screen. I think I got it. So I'll just briefly talk about this because I really wanted to talk about the show. So this is one of the pieces I have in the show. And I would say that. Normally I am.

I tend to stay within the lines and stick to the border with. But I have a series I do algorithmically generated work. And with a series of these bulls that I've done, I created a border within the image that is randomly generated. And I often have the bull take over into the frame. Sometimes the horns push out into the frame. And always the neck moves down into it. So this is one of the pieces that I have in the show.

And then I just wanted to show one of the other ones to give an example of kind of the randomization that I use. This was actually a piece that I intended to put in the show. But fortunately it sold before the show took place. So but this is just another version in the same series. And then this I suppose would be a more literal interpretation of our of tonight's theme. But then I was realizing as we were talking earlier that I do have another series that.

Based so originally I created this. This is more of a digital drawing series. It's not as much of algorithmically generated where I started creating a simple library of symbols that I used to generate these images. And I started getting interested in taking. Street maps. And turning them into. I noticed in Cynthia's presentation where she had the cave drawings. I started looking at maps and trying to find kind of hidden. You know, unintentional symbolism in the maps. And I suppose, like I said earlier, this is maybe a looser interpretation of tonight's theme. But I loved how some of these pieces ended up looking like cave drawings. In this case, I was seeing a book. And I'm going to show you the map. So this is the pregnant deer. But this is actually a street map of downtown Cleveland. And this is the progressive baseball field where the guardians play.

And so as you see with the other ones, these are all based on Major League Baseball fields that have kind of this. This is Detroit Tigers Park. And I felt like in the street map that I pulled out and stylized somewhat. I was seeing this almost like a cave drawing of some sort of lion. Instead of a tiger in this case.

And so that's really all I have to share. Thank you. Congratulations on your show. How are they showing the work? How is the work being displayed? So everything is. Printed with the exception of. There are two sculptures and one video presentation. Okay. But everything else has been printed. So printed on paper and framed or printed on paper and framed canvas and framed.

And then the one woman she does photography. Her name is Jessica West. She does photography with a gel transfer. I believe that might be on the linen. I'm not sure exactly. I'm correct on that. I'll post some information in the chat. Thank you very much. Thank you. I was just listening to a snippet of a very early salon we had in 2021 where Patrick Lichty was speaking about how digital art doesn't get seen enough. Just because there are these barriers to display.

Especially in big institutions like art museums. But now we have. Moma showing. This massive projection in the, in the lobby. So I think. There's been a, there's been some progress. Even in the last two years. It's actually a, an LCD screen, believe it or not. I thought it was a projection as well, but yeah, the screen is actually. A flat screen display, believe it or not, which is really pretty remarkable. Just from the hardware standpoint. What were the dimensions? It was huge. I love that you posted that. Colin.

I think I'm not a hundred percent sure. I think it's Gregory still sharing his screen. Yeah. You're on the screen. Thank you. Sorry about that. That's okay. I have a couple of announcements. There's a. A symposium on Saturday, March the 18th. And the title is AI and the lens and screen arts symposium.

And it's at the school of visual arts. Theater in New York, but it's going to be a zoom event and tickets are free. And there's a huge. Big long. Piece of writing, describing what some of the themes are and who some of the speakers will be. And to obtain all the information, you simply go to Carla Gannis's.

Instagram page. And she came to a couple of our meetings. She's a prof in New York and also very, very active in the digital with making digital art. And so it's Carla dot Gannis G a N N I S. And it's just a simple event, bright sign up. And the symposium goes, I believe from 10 AM in the morning. Until 8 PM in the evening. So there'll probably be something for everyone. Who's interested in. The direction that. Things are going for, for all of us who work in the digital realm with AI. My next door neighbor is a writer and he writes scientific articles. For journals and magazines.

And he's already fretting that he's going to be out of a job because of. The ability of AI to write. So. We had an AI. Salon months and months ago. And I'm sure you've all heard of it. I know because I was the one who. Moderated it. So it's a topic that is just growing and growing very quickly. And the other announcement I wanted to make was that last. So long, we talked about the text. Expressionist. The journal that. For Neda is going is the editor in chief of, and they have a page on the. Expressionism website. And you can drop your email address. There and let. Them know that you have an interest in participating in the journal. Doing something for it, reading it. It's just in its infancy.

I wonder for NATO. Would you have an update for us? No. I guess we'll have to wait. So it's kind of unusual that we have seven minutes to go. On this. Topic. Breaking boundaries. Topic. I had a question. About. The photographers in the group about, about frames and. Lee. For example, you were talking about.

Trying to eliminate them. Well, as a photographer, you can't really eliminate them. And. You know, I think that's a good question. I'm not sure. I think Cynthia at the very beginning was talking about the history. And it. It seems to me that. That the, that. The, our idea of having this border and everything. It got really strengthened by people like Dora. Who used the camera score. And all of this, and they start with boxes and then, then. You know, because before that you. You had like the illustrations. They're just. They're pieces. They're floating in space. Or you have sculptures and people didn't really. Have this idea that everything had to be boxed in. And then at a certain point, you know, we, with the camera score. And then windows. Windows, you know, you're looking through windows and they're all.

And people start putting people. Putting paintings. People in windows. And then. For me, then. They got on all of the, the impressionist. They started really using cameras as a way to try to break the frame because you got the movement. Instead of having all these static shots. Or the static images because the, the, the photograph was capturing things that were moving in blurs and things like that. So you still have the frame. But it's starting to expand the subject matter is really starting to expand outside of it. And I, and for me. I think that's a really important thing. And I think that's a really important thing. As a photographer. A lot of what you're trying to do. And I think also in film, it's even more so you're trying to get past that idea of the static frame. And to imply things that are outside.

So whereas with a lot of the work we're seeing people are physically breaking the frame. I mean, I, I tend to think of it in photography is you're. You're trying to apply what's happening outside of it as, as a, as a way of. Of breaking the frame because you, you can't. Well, you know, collage. Photographic collage that kind of David Hockney was doing in the. I believe he started. To show different perspectives on the same image. On a, on a ground, but without a border. And.

I take your point about the impressionists because. You know, I think it's important to understand that. What I really like with Duga and the other, other ones. Who were influenced by photographs was that their whole sense of composition. Seemed to shift. And it became very different. They were, they were, they were treating the paintings as though they were working from the angle of a, of a camera photographer.

So. Things started getting truncated and. Everything wasn't sort of in, in the middle and well formed. You have interjections. Just like these moments. I think, isn't there a famous one of, of a baton or someone's hand. In the, in the painting. Yeah. You know, it's, it's clearly from the idea of a photograph. Not literally something they saw on a photograph. Right. And Renata, I think.

One of, one of the things that I have found very interesting. And there's some examples. I've had. Chance to see at several museums are. The scroll like artwork from China. Where. About floating images. I mean, you know, it, it. It's so freeing. It's so vastly different. That perspective. It's, it's not that one perspective seeing everything. It, it really is very different.

Yes. In fact, David Hartman. He wrote an entire book on a scroll that he was able to get his hands on. I think from the mat. And when he unfurled it. To talk about that. That pictorial plane and how very different it is. When you're working on a long piece like that. So, yeah, thanks for, thanks for remarking on that. I think what's interesting about scrolls is that you're not intended to see the whole thing at once. So. If you see it with your eyes. Moving. I also think what's interesting about the idea of borders. You.

We use that as a way to say this is art, but as we move into projection. Which, you know, we talked about the LCD screen, but we're also. Now people are projecting onto buildings or even within museums. There are projections. And there's no reason for projection to be a rectangle. I mean, if it's planned, there's not to be a rectangle, at least.

Well, in some theater pieces, you know, they'll start projecting on the people and they don't use rectangles. You mask stuff out and do all kinds of different things. Yeah, William Kentridge did a big, big piece in Rome along the Tiber River Bank. And it's got a brick wall behind, I mean, not behind, beside the walkway that goes along the bank. And he used water to etch the dirt away from all the centuries of silt. And then they projected light and images onto those.

It was a really elaborate thing. And there was music, there were costumed actors. It was a huge production. But again, there's the idea of projection in theater. And he said he liked the fact that he used the water to etch his works because they would fade over five or six years. They would become more and more faint and then eventually vanish.

But that's another subject. One of the most impressive experiences I've had with this topic was at the Art and Technology Exhibit at the LA. I know that at, I forgot where it was at. It was in Los Angeles a long time ago. There was a room called the After Image Room. They made you line up outside the building on a wall that was directly hit by strong sunlight. And when you got to the door, which was this dark frame, they let you in one at a time and closed the door behind you. Now, that's like going into a movie theater. Your eyes are one way because of the strong sunlight. And suddenly you're in a totally black room. And you could hear that there were people in there. And then suddenly a strobe light would come on in one location only. And you could suddenly see all the people in the room.

Their image was sort of burned into the retinas of your eyes within a certain frame. And everybody got excited and moved around. And then you could see the people in the room. And the strobe light came on in another location. Now, according to your eyes, instead of 30 people, there are 60 people in the room. The first 30 are fading out in different colors. And the second 30 that moved around are fading in different colors within a floating frame. And this kept going on for about five minutes. This thing would come on over here and then over there. Everybody moved around. And then, according to your eyes, you could see the people in the room. And then, according to your eyes, there's 100 people in the room at least. All in different colors and in different frames. And you are now searching for the floor because you lost your sense of balance and everything else.

It's like being on psychedelic drugs. Anyway, then they would open a door. And that invites you to come out. All right. And you came out the door into an interior hallway. With additional people. So now, according to your eyes, these 100 people in the room came with you. And their colors are changing. And now there are real people in the hall with you. And they're moving in another direction. Within another frame. And in another color.

It was crazy. Absolutely crazy. And wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. And for artists like me, it made you question a whole lot of things. And I'm not going to lie. I'm going to tell you a story. So one of the things I started doing was painting on plexiglass. Quarter inch thick plexiglass. Big sheets of it. Four foot by eight feet. And I would always leave at least one area. But usually more than one area. Completely unpainted.

So when you took the painting and hung it up on the wall. Whatever was on the wall when you put it up there. Suddenly became a part of the painting. So if you hung it up on a blue wall, you suddenly had this blue thing in the middle of the painting. I had two, three, yeah, three exhibits in L.A. With these things. And it drove the art collectors crazy. You know, they'd buy one of these things. Take it home. And try it. And then freak out. And then move it to another wall. I'd get these phone calls. And they'd say, Lee, you have to come over here and figure out which one of these walls has to show through this paint.

I said to them, no, you're the artist now. You bought the painting. You make the decision. It was a great experience for them, too. What was the name of the show with the strobes? The show that I did? No, the show. The stroboscopic show. Did you do that show? The different strobes? No, the afternoon room was not one of my works. I wished I could claim it was. No, I don't remember the name of the artist who came up with that. It was the art and technology exhibit at, oh, I'm spacing out on the name. It's a very famous science research lab. It's not coming to me at all.

It's okay. It's around this time that we usually have the after meeting or after group. And we usually talk about what theme we're going to see next. One theme that was proposed last time was layers. But I'm going to end it there. And then we can just see what comes up. All right. So, yeah, that sounds like a good plan. The rest of you guys, whoever wants to stick around for the sort of after party slash community building session slash advisory board, whatever you'd like to call it, can hang out. And we'll all pick a topic together. And then it's just time for people to sort of chat. So thank you so much, Renata, for taking the lead on this and moderating. And thanks to all the artists who participated. It was a great salon. And we'll see you in two weeks. So without further ado, I'm going to stop recording in three, two, one, and cut.